tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post1763818502754309905..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: Two Bad Arguments for Political ZionismJerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5565954074439179862007-07-21T12:35:00.000-07:002007-07-21T12:35:00.000-07:00Not exactly sure of the relevance of your comment....Not exactly sure of the relevance of your comment...let us just say the Eastern states of the US from Maryland to Maine, including NY and Pennsylvania, are around 6% of the US. that is a pretty big chunk.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-73641291938702480372007-07-21T00:32:00.000-07:002007-07-21T00:32:00.000-07:00Is 6% really a large chunk? Germany is about 16 ti...Is 6% really a large chunk? Germany is about 16 times bigger than Israel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-55059433040627257412007-07-13T06:16:00.000-07:002007-07-13T06:16:00.000-07:00"And therefore had a Jewish state existed during t..."And therefore had a Jewish state existed during the Holocaust - the only entity allowing open Jewish immigration and escape from the ovens - large numbers would have been saved."<BR/><BR/>Yes, I agree, but I also said that this was a counterfactual. Had there been no Holocaust then even larger numbers would have been saved. <BR/><BR/>Leibowitz and Buber came to Israel not because of their physical security but because of their ideological Zionism. They weren't refugees.<BR/><BR/>Look, I am making factual claims, and so if I am wrong, give me facts. Tell me that Israel saved the lives of Soviet Jews who would have died had they not come here. I will then point out that many Soviet Jews chose to go elsewhere, and that Israel tried to get that choice taken away from them. <BR/><BR/>I don't see how a Jew living in the US is less physically safe than one living here. Certainly, the odds of something happening to an Israeli are greater. (The odds of something happening to either are admittedly low.)<BR/><BR/>You may want to argue, as did Kahane, that America has the potential of turning into Germany, and that when that happens, where will the Jews go? I am not saying that Israel in the future, could not save Jews from extinction. I am just saying that it never did, and we should be grateful for that, right?<BR/><BR/>The question of open immigration was solely in order to get enough Jews here to justify a state. Israel wasn't doing the Jewish refugee a favor by letting them in, like, say, the Sudanese. They argued that this was their home.<BR/><BR/>Are you here because you felt unsafe where you came from? Or are you here -- like me -- for nationalist, Jewish reasons, regardless of the safety issue?Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-15193394266732755522007-07-13T05:23:00.000-07:002007-07-13T05:23:00.000-07:00Let's start with #2 first.The main purpose of the ...Let's start with #2 first.<BR/><BR/>The main purpose of the State was to allow open immigration of Jews to Palestine. The British mandate didn't allow it, and a bi-national state proposed by Buber and Magnes wouldn't allow it either. <BR/><BR/>Had either of those solutions provided for complete open immigration, perhaps a state might not have been necessary. But as you said, that would be a counterfactual.<BR/><BR/>Immigration to Palestine would have and did save Jewish lives. That is not deniable.<BR/><BR/>And therefore had a Jewish state existed during the Holocaust - the only entity allowing open Jewish immigration and escape from the ovens - large numbers would have been saved.<BR/><BR/>Now to #1 - this is the thing I find very hypocritical. If having a Jewish state did nothing to enhance the security of Jews, why did Leibowitz leave Latvia? Why did Buber leave Germany? And why didn't they return to those countries after the war? To find if having a Jewish state increased security for Jews, simply open your door and walk down your street. <BR/><BR/>Ask the Russian who immigrated in 1992, the Ethiopian who immigrated in 1991, the parents of the Yemenite, Iraqi, Moroccan - where did they feel more safe?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com