tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post3038175833281302553..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: The Annual "Comfort-Ye-My-People" PostJerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-45734396812130950812008-08-18T16:32:00.000-07:002008-08-18T16:32:00.000-07:00Wow! Thank you, Jerry. -Anony. also known as Marg...Wow! Thank you, Jerry. -Anony. also known as MargaretAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-17268923959618721582008-08-18T16:27:00.000-07:002008-08-18T16:27:00.000-07:00"As an Orthodox Jew, I cannot understand how you c..."As an Orthodox Jew, I cannot understand how you call the State of Israel racist. A Jewish State is no more racist than a French state or a Chinese State." Are there states of France or China that have a provision saying that the nature of the state as French or Chinese cannot be put to vote? Are there laws in Israel that provide anyone arrested to equal protection of the law? Are there public trials of all those imprisoned by Israel? Not that I've heard of. Instead I hear that Israeli policies regarding treatment of those arrested varies based on allegiance or subservience to Zion. Racism is the witholding of rights from others. Anonymous also known as MargaretAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5493510362248622892008-08-18T10:43:00.000-07:002008-08-18T10:43:00.000-07:00Hmm...where did Richard say that...about the Kumba...Hmm...where did Richard say that...about the Kumbaya bit? He doesn't strike me as a Kumbaya kind of person.<BR/><BR/>For the record I never liked the song "Kumbaya". I certainly don't like holding hands with strangers.<BR/><BR/>But you asked about Jerusalem....well, by the principle of fairness, a two-state solution would involve a fair division of sovereignty: that could either be joint soveignty, or divide up the city, but fairly. <BR/><BR/>That would not mean giving Palestinians sovereignty over half the hole of the bagel -- center city -- and then ringing the city with Jewish settlements. It would mean, minimally, going back to the 67 border. Now, there can be some agreed-upon swaps, I suppose, though the PA usually agrees to too much since the Palestinians are the weaker party. So the swaps would have to be fair and not shoved down their throats.<BR/><BR/>Wait, you asked about the holy places. Well, if I had my druthers, the sovereignty would be either joint or better, neither Palestinian nor Israel, but international. The holy places would be administered by Jews and Muslims and Christians, when relevant. Actually, it would be pretty cool if the Jewish Administration included non-Israeli Jews, and the Muslim Administration included non-Palestinian Muslims. <BR/><BR/>But I have no problem with the Old City be under Palestinian sovereignty. None of the Palestinian negotiators ever claimed that Jews couldn't live in the Old City. If Palestinians can live in Baka, why can't Jews live in the Jewish Quarter (though not, necessarily, today's Jewish quarter, which was part of the post-67 landgrab.)<BR/><BR/>I also would insist on an open city. No walls except the one that Suleiman put there in the sixteenth century. That I would keep. <BR/><BR/>Look, this may not practical -- the Jerusalem syndrome makes politicians who come here crazy --but it's fair. There are Jews who will balk at Har-Habayit, and there are Muslims who will balk at the Kotel. That is why moderate folks, religious and secular, have to be in charge.<BR/><BR/>If religious extremists take over, there are ways of getting them out.<BR/><BR/>As the good book says: shoot first, kumbaya later.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-58945909131559225762008-08-18T10:39:00.000-07:002008-08-18T10:39:00.000-07:00Ploni,The literal translation of Shari'a is what y...Ploni,<BR/><BR/>The literal translation of Shari'a is what you wrote -- the way or the path. It also means torah. So why then did the medievals Jew translate it as "torah" and not as "halakha"?<BR/><BR/>I think the reason is because halakha, strictly speaking, is really narrower than sharia. <BR/><BR/>Halakha in its normal sense doesn't include Torah mitzvot. It refers to law that is rabbinic in origin. But the term shari'a, in its senses, does refer to the Divine law. <BR/><BR/>Now, it is true that both halakha and shari'a are used in the broad sense of religious law, and in that sense they are comparable. But to call halakha "divine law" is against its rabbinic usage.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-70344800830392439322008-08-18T04:43:00.000-07:002008-08-18T04:43:00.000-07:00Out of curiousity, as a "lover" of Jerusalem, do y...Out of curiousity, as a "lover" of Jerusalem, do you also advocate as your friend Mr. Silverstein does the return to the 1967 borders (including the Kotel)? He is under the belief that unlike pre 1967 all will hold hands, sing Kumbaya and allow religious freedom for all parties. Are you of a like mind?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-65661920535587415222008-08-17T03:21:00.000-07:002008-08-17T03:21:00.000-07:00bar kochba; i meant "religio-racist." Usually, I a...bar kochba; i meant "religio-racist." Usually, I am more careful. <BR/><BR/>Israel is the only state in the world where religious conversion gives you the right to be a citizen. If you want to become naturalized in France or China, you don't have to drop your trousers and dunk in a mikveh. True, there are countries that favor people of certain religions. But converting to Islam doesn't give you an automatic right to be considered a Saudi or Algerian citizen.<BR/><BR/>Now, to correct you. You seem to think that you have to be halakhically Jewish to be a citizen of Israel. Do you know that a pork-eating atheist who was born of two Christian parents has automatic rights to become a citizen of Israel if one of his grandparents was Jewish? That's racist my friend, because that is how the Nazis determined who was a Jew. See under "Nuremberg laws."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Unless you are a Jew, or convert to being a Jew (or marry one), it is virtually impossible to become a citizen of Israel. Now, many other countries favor certain ethnic groups in citizenship. But no other country, to my knowledge, restricts citizenship virtually to its own ethnic group.<BR/><BR/>Worse than that -- the Palestinians in Israel are a native minority, buddy -- and no other country discriminates as much in immigration against their native minorities.<BR/><BR/>But, hey, why are *you*, of all people, bringing me the cases of France and China? I thought you don't care what the goyische states do? Aren't they all against us? You want to learn from them? <BR/><BR/><BR/>Or maybe you feel that you do have to provide arguments for your position?<BR/><BR/>As for all the nasty things you say about me, blah, blah, blah, I can simply reply that religious zionism is kefirah and minus, that, as you know, the gedolei ha-dor have always opposed it, that the Rambam doesn't say anything about a Jewish state like Israel, and that the Rambam's state doesn't exist.I have no desire to live in a pseudo-Maimonidean state run by 21st century fascists who wrap themselves up in part of the Rambam's tallis. The Rambam wrote in the 12th century and was influenced in his political philosophy by the Muslims he lived with (and whose families he spent most of his day curing). Read Israel Prize winner Yaakov Blidstein's work on the Rambam's political philosophy. The Rambam's view on the rights of non-Jews in a Jewish state is a direct parallel to the non-Muslims in the Muslim state in which he lived. He also has a Jewish version of Jihad, only that where the Muslims say, "Be Muslim or die," he said, "Be a Ben Noah or die," for which the European rabbis criticized him. There is a lot more Muslim influence in his halakha (the permissibility of like beating your wife le-shem hinukh). Read what Prof. Gidon Lebson has to write about it. <BR/> <BR/>The truth is that guys like you shouldn't be allowed to read the Rambam because you read it backwards. Start with Sefer Mada, especially Yesode ha-Torah and Deos, and then read what Rambam's Jewish state is supposed to bring about -- world peace which allows each of us to study Hashem, which can only be done after studying secular philosophy and science. (Remember --according to Rambam, Talmud includes that stuff.) <BR/><BR/>But if you want to hold by the Rambam (and Rav Kook) on "Som tasim," that's fine with me, because then your women can't vote and your guys will be blown away in the next election.<BR/><BR/>I am sure you have an answer to that one. Et laasot le-Erez Yisrael, hafer et toratkha.<BR/><BR/>Best <BR/>JerryJerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-43602701772237811742008-08-16T18:27:00.000-07:002008-08-16T18:27:00.000-07:00As an Orthodox Jew, I cannot understand how you ca...As an Orthodox Jew, I cannot understand how you call the State of Israel racist. A Jewish State is no more racist than a French state or a Chinese State. As an Orthodox Jew, you know that Judaism is not based on race and if any Arab underwent a halakhic conversion, they would be just as Jewish as you and I.<BR/><BR/>I feel that you are serving as a usefull idiot for the Islamofascists, those who wish to wipe out the Jewish people. By couching this in terms of "opposition to colonialism", "racism", "land-grab", you are acting to weaken the Jewish people. The only way that the modern Zionist experiment will come to an end will not be peacefully, but with a slaughter. Israel is surrounded by people who wish to destroy it and who would gladly send us all to the gas chambers. I am afraid that you are unwittingly (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) acting as a kapo. Remember the penalty of a moser.<BR/><BR/>Are you aware of the position a non-Jew is supposed to occupy in a Jewish state? None of the poskim mention a liberal Westernized democracy as the Torah's ideal state. While I would be opposed to a state based on religious coercion, you must know that a Jew and a non-Jew cannot be equal in a Jewish state. Read the Rambam's works. A non-Jew must accept the 7 Noahide commandments and Jewish sovereignty to live in Israel. He can never be appointed over a Jew, as a king, minister, judge, police or in any capacity. He can have no political rights. Is it fair? No. Is it Western democracy? No. Is it Torah? You bet your ass.Avihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156322358503174356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5236310748642851962008-08-16T14:56:00.000-07:002008-08-16T14:56:00.000-07:00I thought the literal translation of Shari'a (the ...I thought the literal translation of Shari'a (the way or path) was Halakha.<BR/>The Shari'a's development resembles the Gaonic to Shulkhan Arukh development of Halakha , both taking place at about the same time and under the same civil culture.<BR/>I think the independent fatwa system of today in Islam resembles our system of contemporary rabbinic decisions and their scope.<BR/><BR/>-PloniAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com