tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post4887842319124295864..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: Islamophobia as the New AntisemitismJerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5572224646016968852010-09-07T03:22:33.025-07:002010-09-07T03:22:33.025-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-28190936979069481372010-09-07T03:22:25.297-07:002010-09-07T03:22:25.297-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-15028621021429606092010-09-07T02:38:51.966-07:002010-09-07T02:38:51.966-07:00Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5888787134213894372010-08-31T01:49:12.645-07:002010-08-31T01:49:12.645-07:00Bad news for bacci40 -- reading carefully takes ef...Bad news for bacci40 -- reading carefully takes effort.<br /><br />FBI statistics for hate-crimes in the article quoted are for 2008 and do not take into account at all the phenomenon Daniel and I were talking about, which was the rash of anti-Islamic writing and agitation. The hate-crimes are a small part of the picture, and they are on the rise due to recent events.<br /><br />http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2010/08/26/wave-of-hate-crimes-directed-at-muslims-breaks-out/<br /><br />Second, the FBI statistics are notoriously unreliable for total numbers.<br /><br />http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2005/winter/hate-crime<br /><br />Third, I am happy to hear that you condemn hate crimes against Muslims and others, as well as both the Islamophobic and anti-Jewish literature.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-68622063187150843192010-08-30T14:01:44.643-07:002010-08-30T14:01:44.643-07:00bad news for jerry and daniel...the fbi stats show...bad news for jerry and daniel...the fbi stats show that hate crimes against muslims are rare<br /><br />http://www.sacbee.com/2010/08/27/2989095/fbi-data-hate-crimes-against-muslims.html#storylink=scinlinesharebAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-43359684743242244152010-08-24T09:29:33.095-07:002010-08-24T09:29:33.095-07:00That's an interesting exchange Imad.
But shou...That's an interesting exchange Imad.<br /><br />But shouldn't we expand the conversation and look at how many times the Jews SOUGHT power?<br /><br />And shouldn't we also look at how many times Jews, despite their lack of power over others, were singled out for blame for things that were not under their control or under their exclusive control?<br /><br />But I agree that people who argue that Jews are incapable of evil or never do evil things are silly. The prophets, for one, would never agree with this. In fact, my reading of them suggests that they did single out Jews for special opprobium. Jews read about this, and are supposed to take it to heart, every Saturday. So it's a little silly for a Jew to make this argument as Wiesel appears to be doing.<br /><br />Perhaps when people get blamed a lot for things they didn't do, there's a tendency to flip to the other side and claim they NEVER do ANYTHING wrong. I don't know.Peter Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06265080792212813857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-13782563362577011472010-08-24T03:35:41.006-07:002010-08-24T03:35:41.006-07:00I thought that I would also add this link regardin...I thought that I would also add this link regarding Isaac Asimov and his views regarding Anti-Semitism and Prejudice: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/03/asimov-on-antisemitism-and-wider-prejudice.html<br /><br />I particularly was fascinated by the section of his debate with Elie Wiesel, such as this section:<br /><br />"Give me one example of the Jews persecuting anyone!"<br /><br />Naturally, I was expecting this. "At the time of the Maccabees, in the second century BCE, John Hyrcanus of Judea conquered Edom and gave the Edomites the choice of conversion to Judaism, or death. Not being idiots, the Edomites converted, but afterwards they were still treated as inferiors because even though they had become Jews, they were still originally Edomites".<br /><br />Wiesel, even more upset, said: "There is no other example."<br /><br />"There is no other period in history where Jews have exercised power", I replied. "The only time they had it, they behaved just like the others."<br /><br />But I think that you'll enjoy the rest of the excerpt as well.ImadKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-66546645551803575072010-08-23T08:16:37.601-07:002010-08-23T08:16:37.601-07:00re: the thread on the new antisemitism in Tablet M...re: the thread on the new antisemitism in Tablet Magazine.<br />You are a coward and a liar. You reneged on your arrogantly and publicly stated "deal", and you don't have the balls to acknowledge or refute the same. Shame on you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-35238780690368222862010-08-23T07:04:01.393-07:002010-08-23T07:04:01.393-07:00Dhu Nuwass: I'm tempted to say, his conversio...Dhu Nuwass: I'm tempted to say, his conversion was probably incomplete-:)<br /><br />As this debate plays out today, I think Jews are afraid to admit that there have been violent and bad Jews because, they fear, such admissions will be used as justifications for anti-Semitism. "See? They had it coming. They're just as bad as everyone else."<br /><br />Well, in a way, Jews are only human and so are just as bad and just as good as anyone else. But that doesn't provide a justification for anti-Semitism.<br /><br />Though I find it personally challenging, Jerry, I appreciate your attempt to debunk a lot of Jewish myths. It's purgative.<br /><br />That said, I half expect you to write a post about the son of the Italian rabbi who wrote a book that purported to substantiate instances of Jews eating Christian babies and the like saying there is something to his thesis. <br /><br />But maybe that's one myth too far-:)Peter Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06265080792212813857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-2188051641164818102010-08-23T03:12:19.733-07:002010-08-23T03:12:19.733-07:00Peter S
Quick comment, while I adjust my scholar&...Peter S<br /><br />Quick comment, while I adjust my scholar's kippah.<br /><br />Not doubts but qualifications, or better, caveats.<br /><br />First, there is a general question that hovers about the Maimjonides' code of law (Mishneh Torah) as to whether it was to be read as a practical manual or not. <br /><br />Then, there is a question as to what is Maimonides' view on the status of Christians in a Jewish state, i.e.,whether they are idolaters or not, and how they should be handled.<br /><br />And, finally, there is a question as to how *he* would have implemented the laws had he been an advisor to the Jewish king.<br /><br />This last question is, of course, a perennial one. In theory, for example, Jews and Christians were supposed to be subservient and menial in traditional Muslim society. In practice, depending on time and place, things varied considerable, and some rose to the highest ranks. Maimonides himself was a physician to Sultan Saladin's chief minister in Egypt. His wife's kinsman was a royal secretary. I need not tell you about Shmuel ha-Nagid and others. There was nothing comparable to this in Christian Europe until the end of the High Middle Ages (although individual rabbis were on good terms with clery).<br /><br />While Maimonides has some very stern things to say about Karaites and Karaism, his position seemed to soften somewhat when he arrived in Egypt and had to deal with Karaits. <br /><br />Anyway, you may want to look at Elliot Horowitz's book that I mentioned in my response to YBD. He talks about the history of Jewish violence towards gentiles and gentile objects. <br /><br />And let's not forget the exploits of the Jewish king, Dhu Nuwass, who is said to have slaughtered 20,000 Christians after they surrendered. The story was an embarrassment to the Jewish historians of the nineteenth century, who tried to throw doubts on its historicity. I am sure that he would now be embraced by the "tough Jews" who are in search of historical models for their machoism.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-79914847503931953242010-08-22T21:13:11.025-07:002010-08-22T21:13:11.025-07:00Wondering why Jews don't appear to have a warr...Wondering why Jews don't appear to have a warrior culture/martial tradition running through their history so, bar_kochba132, I thank you for this:<br /><br />"Just as Jews forgot martial arts after the fall of their Commonwealth 2000 years ago,"<br /><br />Why the "forgetting"?<br /><br />....and where do the sicarii fit in?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-66976704510131470662010-08-22T15:07:08.763-07:002010-08-22T15:07:08.763-07:00In case my previous comment didn't go through....In case my previous comment didn't go through...<br /><br />Jerry writes: "OTOH--for some reason I guess--you think he wouldn't have countenanced their wholesale slaughter and so, I guess, didn't. "<br /><br />"Point to something I wrote that gave you that implied what you attribute to me..."<br /><br />Sure, you said this...<br /><br />"I am not sure whether he would have countenanced the whole sale slaughter of Christians, who were violaters of the Noahide laws in his eyes, since they were idolaters."<br /><br />This means, to me, you have doubts (for some reason) that the Rambam would have countenanced the wholesale slaughter of Chritians despite his belief that they were violators. Seems like the plain meaning of your words.Peter Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06265080792212813857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-64634593050456556682010-08-22T15:03:41.204-07:002010-08-22T15:03:41.204-07:00When you wrote this...
"I am not sure whethe...When you wrote this...<br /><br />"I am not sure whether he would have countenanced the whole sale slaughter of Christians, who were violaters of the Noahide laws in his eyes, since they were idolaters."<br /><br />...it suggests to me that you have doubts as to whether he would have countenanced wholesale slaughter.<br /><br />The word "necessary" (which you add now) shifts things a bit and opens up a whole new can of worms, as I'm sure you can appreciate. After all, if something is "necessary," it's necessary. But we can always argue whether something is truly necessary, or simply necessary given one's views about Noahidite laws, etc. IOW, it's a judgment call.<br /><br />But it does sound to me that you had some real doubts about whether the Rambam would have "countenanced" wholesale slaughter.<br /><br />I'm much, much, much less learned than you or almost anyone here. I just read and think about what I read based on the meaning of the words. I understand you and YBD have a long-running dialogue, and I'm butting in and don't have all the context.<br /><br />I guess I'd add one thought about what you say here: <br /><br />"Jews did not persecute minorities, it is because they did not have the political power to do so. Had they political power over gentiles they would have treated them in similar ways, i.e., as dhimmis. I brought Rambam as an example."<br /><br />First, you're asserting a hypothetical and putting it up against a long-standing actual. Not, IMO, a real winning argument. Maybe Jews would have; maybe they wouldn't have. We can't know.<br /><br />Isn't there a lot in the Torah that even Orthodox Jews "accept" but don't follow literally for all kinds of reasons, e.g., an eye for an eye? Just because something is written down doesn't mean the Jews would've followed it as we now interpret it.<br /><br />There's a big difference between what's written or what one says one would do in such and such a situation...and what one actually does. It's commonplace to hear people say that, yes Nasser said XYZ, but he wasn't going to do it. Here, you're saying the Rambam said XYZ and WOULD have done it, QED.<br /><br />Further, I'd ask: Is it irrelevant that Muslims sought and gained this sort of power while Jews did not (or perhaps weren't successful at it--a different thing, I know)? The choice to turn inward was a choice, no? It has some moral weight, no? Similarly, the choice to conquer and gain power over others is also a choice with some moral weight to it.Peter Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06265080792212813857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-33742451340933862522010-08-22T14:44:36.830-07:002010-08-22T14:44:36.830-07:00Yet, the point remains that even if the Rambam sai...Yet, the point remains that even if the Rambam said it or believed it, Jews were not in a position to act on such beliefs. The historical record implicates Moslems and Christians but not Jews. Perhaps it's only because Jews weren't able to act, but the fact remain that those who could act did and those who couldn't didn't. <br /><br />As if the historical record isn't sufficient for you, even language eludes you. Muslims, even in America, do not have to deal with anywhere near the persecution that Jews had to live with as recently as 40 and 50 years ago. The notion that there is a correlation between antisemitism and "Islamophobia" because of the response of most Americans to Muslims seeking to build a mosque near the site of an Islamic attack on America is nothing less than a joke. A big, bad joke.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-43519644356651014622010-08-22T11:56:08.484-07:002010-08-22T11:56:08.484-07:00Peter, I think my point is clear. But I will try t...Peter, I think my point is clear. But I will try to explain it to you.<br /><br />YBD likes to show that all was not hunky dory for the Jews (or Christians) living under the rule of Islam, that Islam developed a totalitarian and unegalitarian strategy towards religious minorities. He suggest that the Jews have treated their religious minorities better, and that Jews turned inward and were less persecutory. I suggest that while he is right that Jews did not persecute minorities, it is because they did not have the political power to do so. Had they political power over gentiles they would have treated them in similar ways, i.e., as dhimmis. I brought Rambam as an example.<br /><br />By the way, I can give you a list of rabbis today who argue that in a medinat halakha, that's the way it should be.<br /><br />So my point is that there is nothing unique to Islam about this -- if you want to bash Islam about religious intolerance, you should also bash Judaism and all traditional religions - and that is exactly what secularists have been doing since the Enlightenment.<br /><br />You wrote:<br /> <br />" OTOH--for some reason I guess--you think he wouldn't have countenanced their wholesale slaughter and so, I guess, didn't. "<br /><br />Point to something I wrote that gave you that implied what you attribute to me. If wholesale slaughter was necessary, Rambam would have not only approved it -- he says that Jewish law requiresJerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-53632759586187184402010-08-22T09:51:41.338-07:002010-08-22T09:51:41.338-07:00Jerry says: "And, as I have told YBD before, ...Jerry says: "And, as I have told YBD before, but has failed to answer, our own "Jewish Jihadist", was the Rambam...whereas Muslims and Jews would have been on the same dhimmi status."<br /><br />It's a little hard to know what your point here is: We did it too, so we shouldn't be so critical when others do it?<br /><br />We did it worse than others did it or did it to us?<br /><br />We did it too or worse, so we have it coming to us?<br /><br />Being a dhimmi wasn't all that bad; Jews treated their dhimmis worse?<br /><br />You sort of tiptoe around the Rambam As Jihadist issue. OTOH, he thought that non-Noahidists should be put to death. OTOH--for some reason I guess--you think he wouldn't have countenanced their wholesale slaughter and so, I guess, didn't. But if that was TRULY his belief, why not?<br /><br />Anyway, to come full circle, it seems pretty clear that Muslim jihadists DO countenance wholesale slaughter, and not just in words that rationalize their actions, but in deeds and almost every day it seems.Peter Schwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06265080792212813857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-69963427871560284252010-08-22T08:17:23.597-07:002010-08-22T08:17:23.597-07:00For a wonderful serio-comic take on competing narr...For a wonderful serio-comic take on competing narratives see the film <b> The Infidel </b> Infidelhttp://www.imdb.com/title/tt1424003/<br /><br />Why do we always have to claim the gold medal in the suffering Olympics? Yes we won them in Berlin 36 and Munich 72<br />but it's time we withdrew as undefeated champions.Ericnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-2018975008594942872010-08-21T13:38:46.066-07:002010-08-21T13:38:46.066-07:00Y Ben David,
Since I said there were fundamental ...Y Ben David,<br /><br />Since I said there were fundamental differences between current Islamaphobia and classical anti-Semitism, I have no idea why you bothered with your attempt at humor (that tickled bacci40).<br /><br />And for those readers of my blog who want to read of the history of Jewish violence against gentiles, or against gentile objects when they didn't have the power to go up against gentiles themselves, may I recommend Prof. Elliot Horowitz (of the Jewish History dept. of Bar Ilan)'s book Reckless Rites: Purim and the Legacy of Jewish Violence.<br /><br />And, as I have told YBD before, but has failed to answer, our own "Jewish Jihadist", was the Rambam, who said that anybody who did not accept the Noahide laws in lands under Jewish sovereignty would be put to death. I am not sure whether he would have countenanced the whole sale slaughter of Christians, who were violaters of the Noahide laws in his eyes, since they were idolaters. The dhimmi status accorded to Jews by Muslims, was accorded to those who accepted the Noahide laws. So clearly Christians were better protected under Muslim sovereignty than they were under Jewish sovereignty -- whereas Muslims and Jews would have been on the same dhimmi status.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5820548461502408632010-08-20T12:02:35.527-07:002010-08-20T12:02:35.527-07:00y ben david with a brilliant tongue in cheek post....y ben david with a brilliant tongue in cheek post...thank you for the laughAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-69665057433376595372010-08-20T10:32:57.223-07:002010-08-20T10:32:57.223-07:00YBD's complaint is silly. It's possible...YBD's complaint is silly. It's possible for some Muslims to be the targets of racism even if most Muslims throughout history lived in Muslim states. And racists are very unoriginal people--they tend to use similar sorts of accusations against whoever the target group happens to be.<br /><br />Incidentally, the claim that Jews lost all martial skills for 2000 years is an exaggeration. Try reading about the events leading up to the Emperor Heraclius's planned genocide of the Jews in the early 6th century. I'd say the massacre of tens of thousands of Christians suggests a certain level of martial prowess. And since this is YBD I'm dealing with, it's probably necessary to point out that I don't think anything justifies what Heraclius planned, nor did Christian persecution of Jews justify the massacre of Christians. But this episode suggests that there's an underlying commonality in how people behaved back then when they had power.<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_revolt_against_Heraclius" rel="nofollow">link</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-14572696486048737292010-08-20T09:31:18.404-07:002010-08-20T09:31:18.404-07:00Jerry,
You wordiness is not a substitute for real...Jerry,<br /><br />You wordiness is not a substitute for real intelligence and facts. <br /><br />So get a life ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-22175566994704852332010-08-20T09:28:39.540-07:002010-08-20T09:28:39.540-07:00YBD -
Are we Jews only allowed to care for those ...YBD -<br /><br />Are we Jews only allowed to care for those whose history is the exact lachrymose equivalent of Jewish history? I guess that would limit us to caring only about Jews.<br /><br />Why not try to prevent American Muslims from undergoing the sort of ostracism which so often followed the Jews? Would doing so make you feel less fulfilled as a religious Jew? Would it constitute a betrayal of Jewish history?evetsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-25203200476413052722010-08-20T08:08:42.594-07:002010-08-20T08:08:42.594-07:00I am both professionally and personally puzzled by...I am both professionally and personally puzzled by otherwise thoughtful people who expect Muslim clerics and leaders, and ordinary Muslims, to accept the Zionist narrative. That doesn't mean the narrative is wrong or wholly wrong, only that there is a world of difference between working for and calling for the destruction of Israel, and opposing its existence as a Jewish state. The first is good reason to label someone beyond the pale of discourse, the latter is reason to engage in torturous discussion about the Israel-that-is and how to fix matters to allow both peoples some justice and peace. <br /><br />My organization has no position on the mosque as we work only in Israel. Personally I am embarrassed for the American leaders who are using this issue as a xenophobic point-getter in the upcoming elections. American Jews who hop on the anti-mosque bandwagon seem to forget that when the majority makes its lists of minorities to exclude, sooner or later we turn up on those lists. Bet on it.NJPhttp://www.nif.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-12754876915342120152010-08-20T06:48:14.197-07:002010-08-20T06:48:14.197-07:00I am an anti-Zionist who has no trouble (as it app...I am an anti-Zionist who has no trouble (as it appears some do) with "permitting" (if it were mine to permit) "A Jewish State in Middle East." For me, as perhaps for many Moslems (I am not a Moslem), the problem is not "a" Jewish state but "this" Jewish state, occupying an unspecified amount of territory (unspecified but always expanding), expelling and then excluding indigenous inhabitants, denying rights to non-Jews, dynamiting houses, destroying towns (even as I write!).<br /><br />Some people may think this is a lovely sight, but to me (and, I imagine, to many) it is a frightful abomination.<br /><br />Imagine Manhattan if Maldive Islanders (say) invaded it, expelled 9 million of 10 million New Yorkers, denied them a right to return, and made second-class citizens of the 1 million New Yorkers who somehow remained.<br /><br />Who (except Maldive Islanders) would celebrate such a thing (or fail to be appalled by it)? And would our view change when we considered that Global Warming is is thought to threaten the Maldives with disappearance under the sea? And is GW not a human-caused holocaust?pabelmonthttp://hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-57288742661792535922010-08-20T06:11:49.754-07:002010-08-20T06:11:49.754-07:00I enjoyed the analysis. A different, more abstract...I enjoyed the analysis. A different, more abstract level, for a change.<br /> <br />My only comment:<br />"Anti-Semitic" may apply to the generic American case as much as it applied to the German case, but when used to describe Arab attitudes it becomes an oxymoron; according to the mythological frame of reference of the term. Don't you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com