tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post7169267724871114037..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: Reflections on the Ninth of Av, 2009/5769Jerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-79872270466700000752009-08-04T01:50:35.700-07:002009-08-04T01:50:35.700-07:00Y. Ben David - don't whitewash your racism. Te...Y. Ben David - don't whitewash your racism. Tell us exactly what are the rights of "Ger Toshav" - he cannot vote, or own land, and he is actually class-C citizen. Much like the blacks in southern US in the segregation era, or in South Africa in the apartheid era. This is not the same "citizenship" as the Jews will have in your racist-utopia. This equates Israel, which claims to be a democracy, with the likes of Saudi-Arabia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-48974259817513693882009-08-03T06:10:50.106-07:002009-08-03T06:10:50.106-07:00Mike-
Jerry is correct. I do not have the views yo...Mike-<br />Jerry is correct. I do not have the views you have attributed to me. In this part of the world, people are not viewed as only individuals, they are also viewed as part of a group. This group may be viewed as religious (Sunni, Shia, Jew, Alawite, Assyrian, Druze), or cultural (Circassians and Kurds, for example, are Muslims but they are distinct from other Muslims). Groups have a right to preserve and strengthen their own group identity within a particular territory. Thus, I view Jews as having national rights from the Mediterranean up to the Jordan, in ways that Arabs (Palestinians) don't have. Arabs are entitled to full rights as citizens, either of Israel or whatever entities will evolve in Judea/Samaria and Gaza, but not national rights.This is spelled out in the Torah as the rights of a "ger toshav" (non-Jewish resident of the country), so there is nothing new in what I am saying. Jews have the right to live anywhere within that region as 'national Jews'. Arabs already live in them as well. In principle I have no problem with all the Arabs/Palestinians (both Israelis Arabs and those living in the Palestinian Authority territories) having the same citizenship and the right to move freely within the entire area and live where they want (e.g. a Palestinian living in Ramallah would be freen to move to Um El-Fahem or vice-versa) but this will have to await peaceful times.<br />Needless to say, I am not saying that Jews living in an Arab country are entitled to Jewish national rights there, but we are entitled to them here in Eretz Israel. There are 23 or so Arab states in the Middle East and only one Jewish one, so I don't have any problem with us trying to preserve our national heritage here, just as the Muslim Arabs do in their countries where they apply Sharia law which discrimintes against non-Muslims.<br />This is not Europe nor North America and one should not expect the same sort of governmental systems.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-73136962230672665302009-08-03T05:38:48.892-07:002009-08-03T05:38:48.892-07:00Mike, I am not sure whether you get Y. Ben David r...Mike, I am not sure whether you get Y. Ben David right -- I will let him speak to that. I think his thinking is a bit more complex. <br /><br />But thanks for the compliment.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-50056771388144298362009-08-03T04:29:51.356-07:002009-08-03T04:29:51.356-07:00Jerry, the real point of contention between you an...Jerry, the real point of contention between you and Y. Ben-David is that he believes the land of Israel up to the Jordan river, was given by God solely to the Jews and that they are entitled to defend that land by all means without any moral boundaries and you believe the land has to be shared between the Jews and another people who also lived on it. <br /><br />As a secular Jew, it is surprising to find a religious and nevertheless progressive Jew like you. I never thought it would be possible. In fact, your are more open and tolerant than all my progressive friends and myself and it is for me a real blessing to read you.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-1097233337395439592009-08-03T00:14:19.152-07:002009-08-03T00:14:19.152-07:00This is the third time I have written a response h...This is the third time I have written a response here; the first two times crashed, and so I switch browsers.<br /><br />Y. Ben David,<br /><br />There is the most superficial of comparisons between the plight of Gazans, whose homes were bombed, whose families were killed, and who have been under siege for several years now, and the plight of the Gush Katif settlers, who knowingly chose to live in the Occupied Territories, who refused compensation to move within Israel proper until the last moment, who then insisted on being resettled as communities together, and some of whom live now in comfortable caravans, waiting for settlements to be built (such as in the Hevel Lakhish area). <br /><br />I don't want to suggest that the Gush Katif folks didn't and don't suffer. But surely you are able to see the difference. <br /><br />And Avram, your question is a good one. The truth is that one can live a full Jewish life anywhere there is a Jewish community. But it is a matter of degrees. Remember that Rambam left Eretz Yisrael for Egypt, probably because his family could not have had a truly full Jewish life in the impoverished Jewish communites of Eretz Yisrael (and his brother was in the lucrative trading business).<br /><br />But what makes Israel particularly difficult for me now, is that as a citizen, and as a Jew, horrible things are done in my name. I know, I know, that will happen everywhere; states aren't perfect (and I am getting to Y.Ben David's point in a minute.) But here it doesn't stop. <br /><br />As for Y. Ben David. I don't expect Israel to be a perfect state. I expect it to fulfill the minimal requirements of a decent society. That Israel is a better state in some (but not all) respects than Saudi Arabia is noteworthy, but not satisfactory enough for me.<br /><br />Could Israel be worse than it is? Of course it could. It could, for example, outlaw Arab political parties, or deprive Arabs of citizenship rights, etc, or due process of law, or set up separate beaches for Arabs and Jews, etc. Am I supposed to be gratified that Israel is not segregated the way the US south was?<br /><br />There are some aspects of Israel that are vastly superior to the US -- universal health coverage, for example. So Arab citizens fare better than many US citizens in that regard. But that doesn't make me so much proud of Israel as it makes me ashamed of the US. <br /><br />Of course, the holding of several million Palestinians without citizenship rights in the West Bank and Gaza is unparalleled in the world. And offering them Jordanian citizenship to the West Bankers (many of whom have it) and Egyptian citizenship to the Gazans only makes sense if Jordan and Egypt govern those territories.<br /><br />Y. Ben David, the real point of contention between us is whether an ethnic national state like Israel (and there is NO ethnic national state like Israel) can fulfill the minimum conditions of a decent state. The good news (for me) is that it would not take a whole lot to transform Israel into something like this. My vision of Israel would not look too different from what it is today, although there would be changes. That is because there is much to work on in Israeli society that is decent.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-32792284450330102612009-08-02T20:00:51.536-07:002009-08-02T20:00:51.536-07:00Y.Ben-David:
Your explanation of how other people ...Y.Ben-David:<br />Your explanation of how other people think, and what they say, is one you share with a few others of those who comment on sites regarding Israel and Palestine. Your recitation isn't convincing, particularly to anyone who spends time reading this site, so one's conclusion is that it must be personally satisfying. <br /><br />Israel will lose what goodness it has if its policies and actions continue to be driven by those who seek only personal satisfaction in their state craft.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-40579746259802874952009-08-01T21:31:50.758-07:002009-08-01T21:31:50.758-07:00Avram-
What you are seeing on the part of not only...Avram-<br />What you are seeing on the part of not only Jerry and the "progressives", but also many of the non-Zionist Haredim is that a Jewish state has no right to exist unless it is "perfect", however you define it. <br />In discussions with "progressives", they will tell you Israel is a terrible racist state because it has laws that favor Jews (e.g. Law of Return) and in practice, Arab parties are kept out of the governing coalition. When you point out to them that in practice, the Arabs in Israel are far better off economically and socially and have more freedom than in any Arab country, they will reply that none of this matters and that, in contrast Syria, or Saddam Hussein's Iraq (as it was formerly), even though it is a totalitarian dictatorship where everyone lives in fear of the regime and that most people there are impoverishted, is still better than Israel because its consitution claims everyone is equal and that the country is socialist and secular and this makes them a more virtuous society than Israel. What really exists is not important...it is the theory that matters. This is an anti-humanist position and it explains why "progressives", particularly "progressive Jews" supported Stalin. He really talked a good "progressive" line and he was willing to use whatever force was necessary to enforce "equalit", "socialism", "antiracism", etc.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-3100907167571020642009-07-31T07:56:30.289-07:002009-07-31T07:56:30.289-07:00I'm sorry, but I made a mistake. Obviously, I ...I'm sorry, but I made a mistake. Obviously, I wouldn't imagine that you consider the eradication of Gush Katif as an "atrocity", as I had indicated. I probably meant to say that you do NOT see it as an atrocity, as I do.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-82336349443009375632009-07-31T06:57:47.177-07:002009-07-31T06:57:47.177-07:00This isn't the first time you've stated ho...This isn't the first time you've stated how difficult it is for you to feel Jewish in Israel ...<br /><br />I just don't get this. I mean, you're not a Jew in Iran, or 1980s USSR, or 1930s Germany. Since Jewishness/your faith is obviously such an important part of how you define yourself, if it is bad for you here, how come you've stayed for 35 years? I'm not saying "leave", chas ve chalila - you have every right to be an active part of this country. But I just don't understand the logic - surely you should be in a country which allows you to be a complete Jew (I'm sure it's the US for you) ...Avramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296573781960136899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-22034567516080598122009-07-31T02:06:30.104-07:002009-07-31T02:06:30.104-07:00Looks like scenes from Gush Katif of exactly four ...Looks like scenes from Gush Katif of exactly four years ago when Sharon and the IDF were finished with them. Seems like the IDF is an "equal opportunity" destroyer.<br />Promise the generals a big payoff as reward and they will go after anyone you want.<br />Of course, you probably enjoyed those pictures just as you deplore the one you posted here. The irony is that it was that atrocity (as you no doubt see it) that lead directly to this one and the one in Lebanon in 2006.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.com