tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post7170680956014734506..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: From “Ticking-Bombs” to Bombing ‘Tics’ – Why We Can Kill So Many Civilians in Gaza and Sleep at Night Jerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-57443602745479245222015-04-26T23:57:12.239-07:002015-04-26T23:57:12.239-07:00Just read through the arguments (bit late, I know)...Just read through the arguments (bit late, I know) and why did I bother since the flow is typical of the "blogosphere". But I did find one argument especially, well, funny:<br /><br />"You really can't equate Israel to Hamas. Hamas is indeed evil and needs to be destroyed. That is what counts when you strip everything down to its essence.<br /><br />The notion that had I been born under different circumstances heck, I might be Hamas myself doesn't matter, for I wasn't born into different circumstances.<br /><br />So in the end, philosophical "thought experiments" are forgive the word - Crap. They don't reflect the real world."<br /><br />Assuming you meant it, you are like that, you think it is the proper way to think and other people were like this as well. <br /><br />Why then should any Goy think Israel good and Hamas evil. Not being Jews themselves they have no "natural" pro-Israel inclination, in fact whenever their groups interests would intersect with those of Jews they should act against the Jews, and any sympathy towards outsiders like the Jews would be determined by manipulation of their opinion rather than facts or universal principles. <br /><br />If this argument were correct it would justify Israels actions and your own view, but also the views of any bigot, racist or anti-Semite on earth. Really it is the most pathetic attempt at self justification using the "real world" type arguments possible. Also, you should watch that exceptionalist tendency of yours, it is the disease of lesser minds the world over and ironically, of any "race".Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01645404483882646197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-53742514499790176262015-04-26T23:55:03.296-07:002015-04-26T23:55:03.296-07:00Just read through the arguments (bit late, I know)...Just read through the arguments (bit late, I know) and why did I bother since the flow is typical of the "blogosphere". But I did find one argument especially, well, funny:<br /><br />"You really can't equate Israel to Hamas. Hamas is indeed evil and needs to be destroyed. That is what counts when you strip everything down to its essence.<br /><br />The notion that had I been born under different circumstances heck, I might be Hamas myself doesn't matter, for I wasn't born into different circumstances.<br /><br />So in the end, philosophical "thought experiments" are forgive the word - Crap. They don't reflect the real world."<br /><br />Assuming you meant it, you are like that, you think it is the proper way to think and other people were like this as well. <br /><br />Why then should any Goy think Israel good and Hamas evil. Not being Jews themselves they have no "natural" pro-Israel inclination, in fact whenever their groups interests would intersect with those of Jews they should act against the Jews, and any sympathy towards outsiders like the Jews would be determined by manipulation of their opinion rather than facts or universal principles. <br /><br />If this argument were correct it would justify Israels actions and your own view, but also the views of any bigot, racist or anti-Semite on earth. It is the most pathetic attempt at self justification using the "real world" type arguments possible. Also, you should watch that exceptionalist tendency of yours, it is the disease of lesser minds the world over and ironically, of any "race".Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01645404483882646197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-66546057178729360112010-12-17T02:29:14.718-08:002010-12-17T02:29:14.718-08:00for more info, or for out to locate those articles...for more info, or for out to locate those articles, contact me at jeremiah.haber@gmail.ocmJerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-72809007431436555372010-12-17T02:28:22.755-08:002010-12-17T02:28:22.755-08:00Noah, knowing undergraduates, your paper is probab...Noah, knowing undergraduates, your paper is probably due today or MOnday at the latest. I would recommend you look at other posts, like my two-part criticism of MOshe Halbertal (read his original article in the New Republic first), the letter of his students, and the exchange between Margalit and Walzer and Asa Kasher in the New York review of books. These deal with in bello issues; the ad bellum issue is taken up by other critics of the war, for which see Norman Finkelstein's, This Time We Have Gone Too FarJerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-80603046725374854942010-12-16T14:10:39.811-08:002010-12-16T14:10:39.811-08:00I'm writing an undergraduate paper using the w...I'm writing an undergraduate paper using the war in Gaza in 2008 as a case study for the application of Just War theory. May I use some of this post?Noah Fergusonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09634919227836739617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-9160305650355462032010-09-22T12:05:50.993-07:002010-09-22T12:05:50.993-07:00I have no idea what your second point is. Ghayan&#...<i>I have no idea what your second point is. Ghayan's children are as innocent as my children or your children. I must be missing something here.</i><br /><br />You are missing their upbringing for one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-71692200595111202452010-09-22T12:03:32.358-07:002010-09-22T12:03:32.358-07:00Did you ever see this TV show?
http://www.youtube...Did you ever see this TV show?<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkb-0uQ1c8o<br /><br />I am a fan of Sherman.<br /><br />War is Hell. You can not refine it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-11956720494384999912010-06-13T16:44:55.198-07:002010-06-13T16:44:55.198-07:00I have just been on Wikipedia examining the deaths...I have just been on Wikipedia examining the deaths by Hamas from rocket attacks into Israel. In 2009 the Israeli's killed 1400 people. Hamas killed 9. This year to date no Israeli's have been killed by rocket attacks. My conlclusion is that the Israeli government throught the media are using scare tactics to insense and increase the hatred of Palestinians from ordinary Jewish people..... And its working like a treat!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-50809482479719410342009-05-22T16:01:08.112-07:002009-05-22T16:01:08.112-07:00Critical Theory. You mean Cultural Marxism, right...Critical Theory. You mean Cultural Marxism, right?<br /><br />Sorry, but I am no fan of the Frankfurt School! In fact I blame them for the destruction of America.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-53287871708451918692009-04-10T02:27:00.000-07:002009-04-10T02:27:00.000-07:00"Show these scum..."May I suggest a side..."Show these scum..."<BR/><BR/>May I suggest a side-trip to critical race theory?<BR/><BR/>http://www.princeton.edu/~amimages/gotanda.html<BR/>http://www.thenewpress.com/index.php?option=com_title&task=view_title&metaproductid=1048<BR/><BR/>Saves me from making an insulting response to this remark, which it deserves but which would be counter-productive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-89757795324307200842009-01-08T11:35:00.000-08:002009-01-08T11:35:00.000-08:00To all the warmongers out there who say that moral...To all the warmongers out there who say that moral reflection is not for the real world but should be reserved, if at all, for the classroom:<BR/><BR/>It is not surprising that bullies are impatient with anything that will restrict their violence, or interfere with the exercise of their power. <BR/><BR/>It is also not surprising that they respond to a moral challenge with the intellectual equivalent of, "Oh, yeah?"<BR/><BR/>I remember when Israelis used to speak enviously of the Soviet Union's war in Afghanistan. "Look," the warmongers would say, "they kill all those terrorists in Afghanistan, and the UN doesn't condemn them. Oh, if only we were as powerful as a great power like the Soviet Union."<BR/><BR/>Well, look at the Soviet Union now -- and look at Afghanistan now.<BR/><BR/>Look, if you want to leave morality for the classroom, fine with me.<BR/><BR/>Just do me a favor. Don't have any childen. And if you do, don't raise them in the way you were obviously raised.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-25498084848507595682009-01-08T08:20:00.000-08:002009-01-08T08:20:00.000-08:00I have never gotten this "proportionate argument"....I have never gotten this "proportionate argument".<BR/><BR/>You attack the enemy until the enemy has neither the will nor the ability to fight you.<BR/><BR/>Of course that means your violence will in the end be disproportionate to that of your enemy.<BR/><BR/>"Proportionate" violence means the war is at a stalemate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-82501475938050444632009-01-08T08:15:00.000-08:002009-01-08T08:15:00.000-08:00"I propose that people debate the morality of this..."I propose that people debate the morality of this decades hence and let the IDF concentrate on getting the job done now--"<BR/><BR/>Absolutely. That is precisely my point.<BR/><BR/>Such academic/philosophical discussions have no relevance in the real world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-59884183440395111112009-01-08T08:13:00.000-08:002009-01-08T08:13:00.000-08:00"Someone 'racist' would think that biologically sp..."Someone 'racist' would think that biologically speaking, the Palestinian Arab civilians next to terrorist Ghayan's house (including his own family members) are incontrovertibly inferior to Israeli Jewish civilians."<BR/><BR/>But it doesn't take a belief in "biological inferiority".<BR/><BR/>I believe it is correct as an universal objective statement that all lives are of "equal worth".<BR/><BR/>But life is lived in a subjective manner. And so looking at it that way the life of the IDF soldier is worth many times that of a Palestinian civilian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-39544871646050002212009-01-08T08:05:00.000-08:002009-01-08T08:05:00.000-08:00Surprising, I don't think we are as far of as you ...Surprising, I don't think we are as far of as you might think.<BR/><BR/>"I have found that moral relativists exist only in the classroom or on the comment pages of blogs."<BR/><BR/>That's exactly my point. Because there one is free, if they choose to be an "objective observer" and remove themselves from any consequences of what is being observed.<BR/><BR/>But life is lived not objectively but subjectively.<BR/><BR/>And when you look at it that way, no human life isn't of "equal value". The lives of your family, your friends, your countrymen comes first.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, you do believe in absolute standards of right and wrong, at least as it applies to the setting you find yourself in. And that is why I find looking at stuff like this from a "philosophical" manner so distasteful. <BR/><BR/>You really can't equate Israel to Hamas. Hamas is indeed evil and needs to be destroyed. That is what counts when you strip everything down to its essence.<BR/><BR/>The notion that had I been born under different circumstances heck, I might be Hamas myself doesn't matter, for I wasn't born into different circumstances.<BR/><BR/>So in the end, philosophical "thought experiments" are forgive the word - Crap. They don't reflect the real world.<BR/><BR/>Certainly they don't when it comes to war. In war it's killed or be killed. That's all that matters there. And your goal in war is to achieve victory with the fewest lives lost on your side as possible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-15729208967288242252009-01-08T06:28:00.000-08:002009-01-08T06:28:00.000-08:00Anon from January 6, 2009 3:14 AM:One of the major...Anon from January 6, 2009 3:14 AM:<BR/><BR/>One of the major problems with your argument is that it is impossible to know what would happen had Americans not bombed Hiroshima. You say it would have cost many more soldiers lives and civilian lives. How many? 1? 1,000? 100,000? This is pure hypothetical and you are justifying a terrible crime by invoking dangers we as humans can not really estimate with any good precisions. <BR/>And, lo and behold, a lot of contemporary historians agree that it was not actually Hiroshima and Nagasaki that stopped the war <B>but the decision of the Russians to join in and open a second front!</B> So, here is an example of how judgments like yours can go totally wrong. If the view of these historians is correct, then Hiroshima and Nagasaki were totally unnecessary. <BR/>So, I am wary of arguments that say "if we don't do this sure more people will die", because in most cases it is impossible to know if that has any truth in it.Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-48627316960971163752009-01-08T06:22:00.000-08:002009-01-08T06:22:00.000-08:00Someone "racist" would think that biologically spe...Someone "racist" would think that biologically speaking, the Palestinian Arab civilians next to terrorist Ghayan's house (including his own family members) are incontrovertibly inferior to Israeli Jewish civilians. <BR/><BR/>I propose that people debate the morality of this decades hence and let the IDF concentrate on getting the job done now--just as they did when the RAF firebombed Dresden, an act that burned crispy tens of thousands of innocent German civilians in just one night-- on a disproportionate scale scale to the tens of thousands of British civilians killed in the London Blitz over the course of many months.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-78572186799685016932009-01-07T02:05:00.000-08:002009-01-07T02:05:00.000-08:00Steve and Alex,What you are saying is foolish. And...Steve and Alex,<BR/><BR/>What you are saying is foolish. And it is not just foolish from my perspective. It is foolish from an absolute perspective.<BR/><BR/>What is more, you don't believe it. You say you do, and you think you do, but you don't act upon that belief. On the contrary, you act upon the belief that there are objective standards of right and wrong, and least in the sense of near-universal agreement.<BR/><BR/>So -- and here is my point -- why do you say you believe in foolishnehss (i.e., moral relativism) even though you don't really believe in it? Why, for that matter, does every undergraduate introductory class to ethics have some guys in there who sprout the same crap? Why don't they say that in classes in physics, for example -- you know, Einstein had his opinion and Newton had his opinion, and there is no objective answer.<BR/><BR/>(And discerning folks out there -- don't interrupt me and quote Feyerabend -- you're in the wrong class.)<BR/><BR/>Moral relativism, like extreme skepticism, is the refuge of a lazy thinker. It is easy to say ("How you do know?" is only four words), and very difficult to disprove, because in expressing it, one has left the ground of common discourse. If you try to defeat the skeptic, she will deny the validity of all arguments. <BR/><BR/>But -- and here is the weakness of the moral relativist or the extreme skeptic -- in order to make a case for these positions, an advocate has to use arguments. And those arguments, like the ones used by Peter and Steve, are so bad, that even if their position were correct, who would want to be associated with them?<BR/><BR/>All right, the above was condescending and nasty. Let me see if I can say something more substantive.<BR/><BR/>Steve, you say that the Nazis were wrong absolutely because they could have achieved their goals with less lethal methods. <BR/><BR/>But what were their goals? One was the extermination of the Jewish race, which was a poison to civilization. How could they have done that with less l<BR/><BR/>Both of you say that what we believe is influenced by our environment, and by being part of a certain state, religion, etc. Well, obviously. But here I am, an American and an Israeli, and I am highly critical of the tribes of which I am a member. And that is because I am also a member of other tribes (tribe of educated individuals, tribe of liberals, tribe of enlightened Jews, tribe of folks who like the banjo, etc., etc.). We all have multiple identities, and multiple pulls. <BR/><BR/>Education, including moral education, is intended to make us better people, more discrimininating, more sensitive to others, more guilty when we are not, etc.<BR/><BR/>I have found that moral relativists exist only in the classroom or on the comment pages of blogs. When those people turn to the real world, they are constantly appealing to universal standards. One of the first things children learn in their moral education is the meaning of "fairness." "That's not fair" is universal, even though standards of fairness may vary (less than you think.) It's part culture, but it's part biology, as well. <BR/><BR/><BR/>An active participant can try to be as objective as possible. When a soldier refuses an order because he deems it immoral, he tacitly or explicitly is appealing to an objective standard. In his case, he refuses to stand with his tribe -- or, rather, he stands with the trans-national tribe of moral people everywhere.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-70803491468345930912009-01-06T19:08:00.000-08:002009-01-06T19:08:00.000-08:00"the idea that peoples should be ranked by virtue ..."the idea that peoples should be ranked by virtue of their contributions to human culture "<BR/><BR/>I don't believe that is what he was saying.<BR/><BR/>I believe he was just making a subjective statement regarding what he thought "from where he sat" would be the best outcome (from his perspective) and thought that for him if it was a choice between the Palestinians and the Israelis it would be better from his perspective for the Israelis to survive over the Palestinians.<BR/><BR/>Now if he "sat" somewhere else he would obviously have a different criteria that he would use and that could lead him to a different conclusion.<BR/><BR/>The whole thing wasn't making an universal objective determination of value. Instead it was totally based upon him being an active participant (albeit a very indirect one) instead of a objective observer. It is based upon him feeling an effect (albeit a distant effect) from the outcome of events.<BR/><BR/>If he was an objective observer he would not be effected one way or the other by the outcome. Or at least say he was a historian where the effects of the situations had already manifested themselves so he could now stand back somewhat and look at things from a more detached manner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-31387736403215899522009-01-06T03:43:00.000-08:002009-01-06T03:43:00.000-08:00"Certainly more Jews have died a violent death in ..."Certainly more Jews have died a violent death in the last sixty years in, or because of, Israel, than outside Israel."<BR/><BR/>Can't really make that statement because you don't know what would have happened if no Israel existed.<BR/><BR/>Could have been quite possible that if the Jews were not living in Israel the European country they were living in would have done another pogrom taking far more lives than have been lost over these sixty years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-58220129662534088092009-01-06T03:37:00.000-08:002009-01-06T03:37:00.000-08:00"And, as you point out, Steve, who is to say which..."And, as you point out, Steve, who is to say which culture or civilization contributes more. Doesn't that depend on where you sit, too?"<BR/><BR/>Absolutely, I didn't say otherwise.<BR/><BR/>If I sat elsewhere I would see more value in Palestinian survival (say I was a Muslim) than Israel's.<BR/><BR/>It is totally based on where I sit. If you look at it as an "outside observer" then you can't really condemn either side.<BR/><BR/>Just like looking at it historically you can't really condemn the American Settler defending his family or the Native American defending his. In the end no heroes or villains. Just people in conflict where only one can eventually prevail.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-84906966352748031602009-01-06T03:31:00.000-08:002009-01-06T03:31:00.000-08:00"Secondly, the idea that peoples should be ranked ..."Secondly, the idea that peoples should be ranked by virtue of their contributions to human culture is an old one that led to Nazism."<BR/><BR/>I said that I don't rank the people by the virtue of their contributions to human culture but when I look to outcome of conflicts I must (subjectively) look to see if which outcome would be "best". <BR/><BR/>And would it be better (from my perspective) that the Israelis are pushed into the sea or the Palestinians are pushed into the desert? And given what would be lost of the Israelis were pushed into the Sea to what would be gained if the Palestinians won, it would be much better for the Israelis to win.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-69068359889031052552009-01-06T03:27:00.000-08:002009-01-06T03:27:00.000-08:00"But are you concluding that from the fact that th..."But are you concluding that from the fact that the Nazis thought that they were right, that they were right?"<BR/><BR/>They were right from their perspective. I think though the difference is they didn't have to do what they did (in the killing of the Jews) in order to achieve what they wanted to achieve. I believe there were other ways to achieve the same objective without causing such pain and death.<BR/><BR/>And if there wasn't then I guess it would depend upon if you thought what they achieved was worth what they had to do in order to get there. Again, I guess that would be subjective as well.<BR/><BR/>I would say they were wrong a) because there were other ways to achieve their objectives and b) because at least to me I didn't find their objectives that worthy of being achieved. But again with b) at least that is very subjective on my part and if I was a believer I would probably fall down the other way on that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-52340560739462471852009-01-06T03:17:00.001-08:002009-01-06T03:17:00.001-08:00You should really read General Sherman's letter to...You should really read General Sherman's letter to the Citizens of Atlanta before he burned that whole damn place to the ground.<BR/><BR/>http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/sherman/sherman-to-burn-atlanta.html<BR/><BR/>"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-28791534463770371132009-01-06T03:17:00.000-08:002009-01-06T03:17:00.000-08:00Steve, I have no doubt that from where the Nazis "...Steve, I have no doubt that from where the Nazis "sat" (your term), they thought they were right. There were lots of books written on ethics and morality in the Third Reich.<BR/><BR/>But are you concluding that from the fact that the Nazis thought that they were right, that they were right?<BR/><BR/>A lot of people think that there is something to astrology. But does that make them right?<BR/><BR/>Sure, people who have been educated to think there side is always right can't see the other side. People who have been educated to see how similarly the arguments of both sides are, can see how little difference there is besides them.<BR/><BR/>As for the relative worth of Palestinian vs. Jewish culture, some points. <BR/><BR/>First of all, you have no convincing argument that the state of Israel is essential for the survival of the Jews, much less Jewish culture. On the contrary, it is arguable that Jewish survival is threatened by Israel. Certainly more Jews have died a violent death in the last sixty years in, or because of, Israel, than outside Israel. And because Israel identifies itself as a Jewish state, Jews in the diaspora are also at threat. When the IDF bombs Arabs, Jews suffer around the world.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, the idea that peoples should be ranked by virtue of their contributions to human culture is an old one that led to Nazism. Why not just kill all the unproductive peoples (they take up enormous resources) and leave the ubermenschen?<BR/><BR/>And, as you point out, Steve, who is to say which culture or civilization contributes more. Doesn't that depend on where you sit, too?<BR/><BR/>I hope that you think about this a bit more. And maybe get educated a bit while you are at it.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.com