tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post7172878467217149147..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: Michael Walzer and Avishai Margalit Condemn Israel’s Conduct of the War in GazaJerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-36735109572628433622009-05-10T01:16:00.000-07:002009-05-10T01:16:00.000-07:00To Anonymous May 3, 2009 11:10 PM
Do you doubt tha...To Anonymous May 3, 2009 11:10 PM<br />Do you doubt that the feeling you have for your child is one universal to human beings? Believing that those of other "tribes" don't share human emotions serves a purpose; it makes it easier to kill anyone not of one's own tribe.In My Opinionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-20690878264879106842009-05-03T23:10:00.000-07:002009-05-03T23:10:00.000-07:00I love my child much, much, much more than I love ...I love my child much, much, much more than I love yours.<br /><br />Call that tribal if you like.<br /><br />I call that human.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-55590975497033621552009-04-28T14:04:00.000-07:002009-04-28T14:04:00.000-07:00Hi Pete,
"Maybe they were desperate? Frustrated? ...Hi Pete,<br /><br />"Maybe they were desperate? Frustrated? Hoped to make it (that's why they are called "infiltrators")?<br />I don't know how realistic their hopes were or if they realized it."<br /><br />Ok ... If that's how it makes sense to you, I can respect that. I don't agree with it, but c'est la vie.<br /><br />Happy Indepedence/Nakba day.Avramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296573781960136899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-48753710166986105742009-04-28T12:12:00.000-07:002009-04-28T12:12:00.000-07:00Thanks, Robbins, but why do you consider this to b...Thanks, Robbins, but why do you consider this to be a response? The author doesn't understand either side's position. Kasher and Yadlin flatly contradict his interpretation of them. See my response there. And read my post above.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-33822914463390885752009-04-28T07:49:00.000-07:002009-04-28T07:49:00.000-07:00A terrific response to Margalit and Walzer at Z-W...A terrific response to Margalit and Walzer at Z-Word:<br /><br />"A Partial Defence of Kasher and Yadlin"<br /><br /><br /><br />http://blog.z-word.com/2009/04/a-partial-defence-of-kasher-and-yadlin/#more-1242<br /><br /><br />Will the brave Magnes man come and respond on Z word where he has no control of the microphone?<br /><br /><br />RobbinsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-14527550117432938342009-04-27T10:39:00.000-07:002009-04-27T10:39:00.000-07:00Avram
why would these guys come back unarmed? Sur...Avram<br /><br /><I>why would these guys come back unarmed? Surely, they knew they'd be 'armed people' saying no? It's not really adding up ...</I>Maybe they were desperate? Frustrated? Hoped to make it (that's why they are called "infiltrators")? <br />I don't know how realistic their hopes were or if they realized it.Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-51619013553242252602009-04-24T08:32:00.000-07:002009-04-24T08:32:00.000-07:00Peter is correct that I have used both Y. Ben-Davi...Peter is correct that I have used both Y. Ben-David and Bar-Kochba132as pen-names. I explained this on Richard Silverstein's site as well. There is no conspiracy involved and I am not attempting to use "sock puppets". I originally used BK but found it was causing a lot of unnecessary digression into the history of the Second Jewish War against Rome. I still use BK at Silverstein's and Phil Weiss' sites primarily because it pops up automatically in the comments box.<br /><br />Regarding "lech l'azza" I do speak Hebrew and at work I am in a totally Hebrew speaking environment and I can not recall hearing that. However, I do not hang around "the street" (felaffel stands, coffee houses, kiosks, etc) that much and I confess I do not understand a lot of the slang my kids know. You are quite right that Israelis don't like the place (Gaza), reserve service there was not liked very much. This is why Sharon figured (correctly) that he could get away with destroying Gush Katif, because he thought that "right-wingers" would not oppose him strenuously for this reason. Interestingly enough, Palestinians in Judea/Samaria feel the same way. That is why the Palestinian Authority never fought very hard to get the free passage open between Gaza and Judea/Samaria. Gazans have a very different accent (based on the Egyptian accent) than Palestinians in Judea/Samaria and are easily identifiable by this.<br />I have a feeling , although it is not provable by official statements made by the Palestinian Authority figures, that they feel that the HAMAS coup in Gaza was the best thing that ever happened to FATAH's Palestinian Authority. It opened the EU and American treasure chests and has led to a massive inflow of money to the FATAH people.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-39006828074989957652009-04-24T04:34:00.000-07:002009-04-24T04:34:00.000-07:00ok peter - this i don't get
"So, majorit...ok peter - this i don't get<br /><br />"So, majority of infiltrations were unarmed. "<br /><br />what was the reason most of these people 'left' their farmlands?<br /><br />now there's normally 3 reasons<br />a) expelled by force<br />b) left due to the fear of being expelled by force<br />c) left b/c of request by Arabs<br /><br />C is highly contentious as you've shown, so if it's either a & b - why would these guys come back unarmed? Surely, they knew they'd be 'armed people' saying no? It's not really adding up ...<br /><br />"How does your quote contradict that exactly?"<br /><br />Well, of the 9000 fedayeen attacks (unless you're contending that), how many of those resulted in deaths of the attackers? 'migrant and social' workers are far likely to be killed by guards than fedayeen who are trained to kill and leave ... I will have to find the Morris stuff I have to see if he mentions, or if they work in parallel.Avramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296573781960136899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-89686940699629207442009-04-22T06:05:00.000-07:002009-04-22T06:05:00.000-07:00Can somebody explain to me how 300 children got ki...Can somebody explain to me how 300 children got killed this winter in Gaza? I still don't get it.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-89189197959068261222009-04-21T15:47:00.000-07:002009-04-21T15:47:00.000-07:00"i find it fitting (and funny) that a guy named "C..."i find it fitting (and funny) that a guy named "Contentious Centrist""<br /><br />I'm not a guy. I wonder why people keep making this mistake. It's very annoying.The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-90958760715240041972009-04-20T20:56:00.000-07:002009-04-20T20:56:00.000-07:00Contentious Centrist and Avram,
Kind of negates w...Contentious Centrist and Avram,<br /><br /><I>Kind of negates what you said ...</I>not really, unless you have reading comprehension issues or just too keen on selective quoting:<br /><br /><I>From the Israeli Defence Forces archives, Israeli historian Benny Morris concluded that the majority of Palestinians killed on the border between 1949 and 1956 were unarmed migrants:<br /> Israeli security forces killed some 400 infiltrators a year in 1951, 1952 and 1953. At least a similar number and probably far more were killed in 1950, and 1,000 or more in 1949. At least 100 (and perhaps many more) were killed during 1954-6. Thus, upward of 2,700 Arab infiltrators and perhaps as many as 5,000, were killed by the IDF, police, and civilians along Israel's borders between 1949 and 1956. To judge from the available documentation, the vast majority of those killed were unarmed 'economic' and social infiltrators.</I>So, <B>majority</B> of infiltrations were unarmed. How does your quote contradict that exactly?<br />Next, you need to understand the process of these articles appearing on Wikipedia. They are a result of a constant tug of war between pro-Pal and pro-Israel editors. See through the specific edition (go to the "discussion" tab) if you have time on your hands to try to figure our the context - it's a lot of fun. My part quoted Morris who is by far the most authoritative Israeli historian of the period (even despite his turn to the right since 2000) and is written in a neutral manner, whereas your quote is taken from some guy <A HREF="http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/authors.aspx?GUID=f37c803c-ae6a-4007-a0d6-99e2383aecbc" REL="nofollow">the titles of whose articles speak for themselves</A> and who uses language like "a terror war". All this not to deny the fact that there were terror attacks with civilians killed. However, the context is important. When you say "always leaving behind death and destruction" while we learn that "majority of Palestinians killed on the border between 1949 and 1956 were unarmed migrants" the context is lost, to a large extent.Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-25900185621459038802009-04-19T09:00:00.000-07:002009-04-19T09:00:00.000-07:00"this war was not justifiable because (a)it was di..."this war was not justifiable because (a)it was disproportionate, ("<br /><br />Nonsense. EDUCATE YOURSELF.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-73622315465791248362009-04-18T20:13:00.000-07:002009-04-18T20:13:00.000-07:00Peter,
You quote an article that also says:
"Fro...Peter,<br /><br />You quote an article that also says:<br /><br />"From 1949 to 1956, Egypt waged a terror war against Israel, launching c. 9,000 attacks from cells set up in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip." [3]. At first, Palestinians were trying to go back to their houses or to retrieve property but after 1950 these acts became much more violent and included killings of civilians in nearby cities"<br /><br />Kind of negates what you said ...Avramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296573781960136899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-15228250674167260782009-04-18T10:44:00.000-07:002009-04-18T10:44:00.000-07:00i find it fitting (and funny) that a guy named "Co...i find it fitting (and funny) that a guy named "Contentious Centrist" always cares about things which aren't really that important or central to anyone's argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-83533327617494908642009-04-18T06:00:00.000-07:002009-04-18T06:00:00.000-07:00Should be "Arab neighbors." Thank you for the note...<I>Should be "Arab neighbors."</I> Thank you for the note, Contentious Centrist. Read that distinction before, obviously didn't think it through far enough to reach the level of my own usage.Margaretnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-62371285919124418602009-04-17T17:19:00.000-07:002009-04-17T17:19:00.000-07:00From Peter's source:
"From 1949 to 1956, Egypt wa...From Peter's source:<br /><br />"From 1949 to 1956, Egypt waged a terror war against Israel, launching c. 9,000 attacks from cells set up in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip." [3]. At first, Palestinians were trying to go back to their houses or to retrieve property but after 1950 these acts became much more violent and included killings of civilians in nearby cities. After Israel's operation Black Arrow in 1955 which came as a result of a series of massacres in the city of Rehovot, the Palestinian fedayeen were incorporated into an Egyptian unit.[1"The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-32482772371324366282009-04-16T12:27:00.000-07:002009-04-16T12:27:00.000-07:00since the early fifties Gaza was the place from wh...<I>since the early fifties Gaza was the place from which terrorists infiltrated into Israel, always leaving behind death and destruction</I>Really? Considering that most of these were actually <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence#Early_political_violence" REL="nofollow">unarmed Palestinian peasants trying to return to their lands, and shot by the IDF</A>, this statement strikes me as rather misinformed.Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-35108969768722808852009-04-16T05:19:00.000-07:002009-04-16T05:19:00.000-07:00"Margaret said...
.. of the contemptuous attitude..."Margaret said...<br /><br />.. of the contemptuous attitude held by many Israelis toward their Arabic neighbors'<br /><br />"Arabic neighbors'"???<br /><br />Should be "Arab neighbors". Arabic is the language. If you pretend to respect Arabs the very least you can do is get these simple names correctly.The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-1028900594207701462009-04-15T18:50:00.000-07:002009-04-15T18:50:00.000-07:00http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/...http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/04/14/israel-no-one-belongs-here-more-than-the-palestinians/<br /><br />If you have a moment, would you review this, please?<br />.........<br />I got Niccolo Machiavelli's Discourses on Livy, and Obama's Dreams from My Father, still have to get Just and Unjust Wars. <br /><br />My focus has shifted from Israel to the conduct of war. Doing so doesn't de-emphasize Israel much.Margaretnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-2576075140221889492009-04-15T02:37:00.000-07:002009-04-15T02:37:00.000-07:00Robbins - That you say you are not aware of the co...Robbins - That you say you are not aware of the contemptuous attitude held by many Israelis toward their Arabic neighbors indicates one of two possibilities to me: either you never read comments written by others on-line, or your own attitudes reflect the same contempt to the extent that you are unable to perceive how greatly it varies from the norm in other Western countries.<br /><br />By that I don't mean to indicate that bigotry is not a problem elsewhere, but rather that such attitudes are individual, and no longer are accepted as being appropriate for States, whereas the prejudicial discrimination by which Israelis live as individuals is fostered by the State structure. <br /><br />Israel's government is so often compared to the Nationalist Socialist Workers Party, I think, because it still maintains institutions that are based in the autocratic attitudes that roiled middle Europe from the Austrio-Hungarian period onward. <br /><br />So many years later, those attitudes impress one not only as archaic but repugnant.Margaretnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-15871570864804580142009-04-14T16:50:00.000-07:002009-04-14T16:50:00.000-07:00Mr. Haber,
I’m sorry to belabour the point. I get...Mr. Haber,<br /><br />I’m sorry to belabour the point. I get the feeling that you get very impatient with posters who take issue with your so confidently-stated accounts. <br /><br />I took your advice and googled the term "lech-le-azza". It took a few attempts at different transcripts to get a substantial number of results. Here is what one of them says:<br /><br />"Faced with attacks from the Gaza Strip since the early 1950s, Israelis were cursing “Lech le’Aza” – literally “go to Gaza” and figuratively “go to hell” –<br />years before their conquest of the coastal strip where their sworn enemies lived in the largest numbers and worst conditions. Now, as Israel leaves the Strip after nearly four decades of strategic disorientation, Gaza is showing no signs of shedding its dubious distinction as hell’s synonym. Indeed, a vast majority of Israelis – including ones who would not part with its Jewish settlements – woke up this morning happily Gaza-less. To them, this part of the surgery they have just undergone feels less like an amputation and more like the removal of a tumor. Though this rule has had its exceptions, on the whole when Israelis heard “Gaza” what came to mind was hostility, fanaticism, violence and irredeemable destitution. The place author Amos Elon once described as “the Middle East’s<br />armpit” was where most years, most Israelis would not go unarmed, if at all.<br />It was the sprawling maze of makeshift alleys, shanty towns and open sewage channels that two generations of Israelis patrolled incessantly and recall traumatically. It was the place that a succession of Israeli administrations tried, and failed, to rehabilitate;"<br /><br />http://static.jpost.com/images/2007/pdf/oldcovers/2005.0912.pdf<br /><br />So your characterization of this colloquialism as a "double entendre" (the etymology of which you neglected to mention in your original post, leaving the reader with the impression that "lech le-azza" was a malign invention of the average Israeli mind, meant to express utter contempt, disregard, and indifference to the life of Gazan Palestinians) is indeed closer to the linguistic meaning. However, you fail to identify properly the rationale of this abbreviated form of "Lech le-azazel", namely, that the misery of the place had less to do with it than the fact that since the early fifties Gaza was the place from which terrorists infiltrated into Israel, always leaving behind death and destruction. <br /><br />The ill wish conveyed in this expletive has more or less the same function as "Go to hell". People tell each "go to hell" when they hope their enemy will go to a place in which they will feel very uncomfortable and maybe even their life will be endangered. “Lech le-azza” has less to do with Gazza than with the fate that awaits Israelis should they attempt the excursion without protection.The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-74929605172390625262009-04-14T08:59:00.000-07:002009-04-14T08:59:00.000-07:00MY, my Haber you really do go on.
So people in I...MY, my Haber you really do go on. <br /><br />So people in Israel think Gaza is a hell hole. <br /><br /><br />There are lot of places in the world I think is a hell hole, including Sderot, Israel even before the rockets started falling there; Benton Kansas; Aliminusa, Sicily, the Bronx in New York, etc. <br /><br /><br />You also said that Israelis think of Gaza as a hell hole because of the people who live there.<br /><br />This is merely an assertion which you didn't prove. <br /><br />The fact that you need such an assertion because of your intereset in proving that Israeli Jews are racists makes your comment doubly questionable.<br /><br />Finally the kinds of comments you recieve is indicative of your own attitude towards discussion. <br /><br />You can never be wrong, you don't concede a point and you are every bit as fanatical as you claim your Israeli opponents are.Robbinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723394978759598204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-11164937835262111182009-04-14T08:40:00.000-07:002009-04-14T08:40:00.000-07:00See also this take on the issue by Aryeh Amihay (H...See also <A HREF="http://amihay.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/cntrdctn/" REL="nofollow">this take on the issue by Aryeh Amihay</A> (Hebrew).Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-57021927368481540432009-04-14T07:30:00.000-07:002009-04-14T07:30:00.000-07:00"It is also true that military service in Gaza was..."It is also true that military service in Gaza was considered the worst."<br /><br />Which is why they always gave it to Givati! ;)<br /><br />"while I myself haven't heard the expression "lekh le-azzah" either"<br /><br />I think 'kibinimat' replaced it (or at least that's what I heard the most in the army - lech kibinimat'), or it's just an 'older' phrase that is no longer used.Avramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296573781960136899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-15507973182934081932009-04-14T06:11:00.000-07:002009-04-14T06:11:00.000-07:00Makes me long for Y. Ben David and Bar Kokhba........<I>Makes me long for Y. Ben David and Bar Kokhba...</I>...who turn out to be one and the same person.<br /><br />Regarding Gaza and hell-hole, while I myself haven't heard the expression "lekh le-azzah" either, I find Jerry's representation of the attitude of most Israelis towards Gaza accurate. It is also true that military service in Gaza was considered the worst.Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.com