tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post7389720656207399211..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: Religious Zionism and Its Moral DefectsJerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-64281815547435846962014-07-20T23:49:15.018-07:002014-07-20T23:49:15.018-07:00I support the state of Israel. We all want peace i...I support the state of Israel. We all want peace in our lives. Peace is the supreme prize. Regarding the Middle East; truth can set a person, culture, or a people free from their current predicaments. Israel is the preeminent power between it and the Palestinians. Israel has the power and the authority to set the agenda for most issues between it and the Palestinians, and this most definitely includes future peace initiatives. There is one single thing that Israel can do for itself before any peace initiatives can be fruitfully presented from either side in future. Israel needs to have a day of soul, or a significant moment with itself. The day of soul is similar to when a person looks in the mirror not to admire how handsome or beautiful they are, but to truthfully recognise every aspect of themselves. The day of soul is similar to the acceptance of the unvarnished truth about oneself. If there are intermittent wars between people over a significant period of time, intelligent people will always ask why this is happening. There is no escaping from this point. An intelligent and truthful answer to this question is probably the most effective defence that any nation can give itself; the most sublime self-defence without a peer. Israel needs to admit to itself that all is not right in the relationship between itself and the Palestinians. Israel will never have peace until it has its day of soul and admit to itself that it is guilty of discrimination, oppression, occupation and apartheid against the Palestinians. If there is no day of soul; no peace will come. The very second after this day of soul for Israel; peace becomes a realistic possibility. There is an ancient proverb that educates us all that only a fool will stumble over the same stone twice. Is Israel a fool? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-20/gaza-death-toll-soars-beyond-400/5610270?WT.mc_id=newsmailAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16591139761178981025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-71668342976722155972014-07-07T20:45:50.736-07:002014-07-07T20:45:50.736-07:00Hmmm.
When I'm working on such material for c...Hmmm. <br />When I'm working on such material for court cases (and Hebrew<>English legal translation is actually what I do for a living) I'd tend to put an extensive footnote in the text rather than trying to make it encompass the double entendre. I think this conversation covers that ground rather well - and indeed, both citations are entirely valid. <br /><br />Thanks for the interesting discussion! Shunrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17016600058016957827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-9468342301414460192014-07-07T06:11:32.893-07:002014-07-07T06:11:32.893-07:00Shunra, I spoke with some Israelis and, like the r...Shunra, I spoke with some Israelis and, like the rabbi in the joke, they said that were were both right. <br /><br />Here are two links to those who thought there was a word play with the 300 bus line<br /><br />http://www.hahem.co.il/friendsofgeorge/?p=4007<br /><br />http://rotter.net/forum/scoops1/111406.shtml<br /><br />I don't know Perel, so I can't ask him. But maybe this works:<br /><br />"A soldier who is not stopped at the line of 300 foreskins"<br /><br />where the double entendre refers to the fact that the courts stopped soldiers from killing terrorists on the 300 bus line.<br /><br />יעצר is passive<br />Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-85315585496356005182014-07-06T12:48:44.410-07:002014-07-06T12:48:44.410-07:00Thanks for the query - here are a couple of cases ...Thanks for the query - here are a couple of cases where לעצור בקו is used as I suggest: <br />- a Chabad PDF (front page: http://chabad.org.il/_Uploads/files/sh1387usa.pdf ) <br /><br />- a foodie road trip http://demo.ort.org.il/ortforums/scripts/forum_msg_show.asp?pc=393235558&msgID=529147970 (with the geographic/tactical ambiguity - not drawing the line at a geographic line) <br /><br />- stopping pressure at a "red line" (comment 18 here http://www.globes.co.il/news/allresponses_g.aspx?did=1000494079 ) <br /><br />The allusion to the Kav 300 killing seems a bit oblique, although it is not impossible, whereas a misremembering of 100 foreskins asked for, plus 200 provided, as "that chapter with the 300 foreskins" seems possible.Shunrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17016600058016957827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-86228352802624572982014-07-06T01:49:09.418-07:002014-07-06T01:49:09.418-07:00shunra, please give me a example from an internet ...shunra, please give me a example from an internet text where the phrase עצר בקו means "draw the line". That is an Anglicism if I ever met one. I never heard that in Hebrew.<br /><br />And why 300?<br /><br />I took it as a clear reference to the case on Bus 300, where the Shin Bet took Arab prisoners and beat them to death, and then there was a big stink about it, which clearly made Perel unhappy.<br /> <br />It is also a clear Biblical reference to I Samuel 18, where the number of Philistine foreskins is either 100 or 200 but not 300 together. <br /><br />I read the English translations on the web. I think they missed the allusion. But I have provided yours as an alternate, and I will ask my native Israelis.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-42823474980800536622014-07-06T00:45:54.759-07:002014-07-06T00:45:54.759-07:00Your pain and frustration is easy to see, but I wi...Your pain and frustration is easy to see, but I wish to bring up two points that you skimmed over. <br />The first is that Jews are no different from anyone else. This is a fundamental issue, yet somehow we tend to think of Jews as better or above acts of malicious violence of vengeance. Surely this idea of Jews as better than others is in itself prejudice? <br />The second is your point about Jews being naturally “peace-loving” While that may be the case, I would argue that we as Jews turned to being more “peace-loving” as a result of the lack of sovereignty resulting in us having no physical power and being at the mercy of foreign hosts. <br />The “peace-Loving” Jew is the result of living under foreign rule, benevolent or otherwise for the past 2000 years. <br />Going back to the first point. Jews are just like everyone else. <br />Today, Jews in Israel are in the position of power and the peace loving façade is no longer applicable. Hence the idea that Jews don’t do these things was only relevant when we did not have military or political sovereignty. <br />Basically, “Homo homini lupus est” and Jews are no different. <br />My comments are not meant to be a justification or endorsements of any actions or remarks, I’m trying to observe and explore events in a more detached analytical manner.Shaunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05716338951674424292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-91208152147855842822014-07-05T22:06:41.793-07:002014-07-05T22:06:41.793-07:00Just a translation note, here: he didn't say h...Just a translation note, here: he didn't say he'd not stop at bus 300; he said he wouldn't draw the line at 300 Philistine foreskins. <br /><br />Shunrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17016600058016957827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-50587072269975881822014-07-04T02:01:08.168-07:002014-07-04T02:01:08.168-07:00Geoff, there's not much, if any difference, be...Geoff, there's not much, if any difference, between the mainstream orthodox views towards the Arabs, from Satmar to leftwing religious Zionism. That is because all of them are tribalists and concerned only with the well-being of the tribe, and, like tribalists everywhere, don't recognize how much everybody of all tribes is alike.<br /><br />I also agree with those who condemn the rebbe for tastelessness and insensitivy, both in timing and timing.<br /><br />All that said, the ultra-orthodox generally do not engage in anti-Arab violence (although this, alas, is changing), and they are not to take vengeance. Their bigotry is internal and has little practical applications for gentiles. <br /><br />As for the general point that Jews have endangered themselves and other Jews by engaging on the reckless projects associated with Zionism, especially after it declared its intentions, well, I agree with those sentiments, and history has born that out. The least safe place for Jews in the last sixty years has been in the State of Israel, and Jews have been endangered outside of it when the State, which claims to be the state of all the Jews, behaves badly.<br /><br />Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-63391516759835326742014-07-04T01:17:29.313-07:002014-07-04T01:17:29.313-07:00Excellent and very learned article. Thanks for sha...Excellent and very learned article. Thanks for sharing and thanks for your humanity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5248041216377399132014-07-03T07:53:05.323-07:002014-07-03T07:53:05.323-07:00you are so right. religious zionists are so much w...you are so right. religious zionists are so much worse than religious anti zionists<br /><br />http://scotfella-directimpact.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/kiryas-joel-ny-in-fiery-speech-satmar.html?m=1<br /><br />wkovacshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05918401371107647401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-32482065747016738272014-07-03T05:24:28.731-07:002014-07-03T05:24:28.731-07:00I couldn't agree more. I find myself yelling a...I couldn't agree more. I find myself yelling at the radio in frustration as I hear rabbi after rabbi being interviewed, supposedly condemning the violence, but talking about how "we" are not like "them." And it's time we all understood that the very soul of Judaism in our generation is at risk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com