tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post7987169485694432502..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: Yehezkel Dror's Defence of Jewish Fascism in the ForwardJerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-16851214835445664052008-07-06T13:01:00.000-07:002008-07-06T13:01:00.000-07:00Sure there can moral fascists, just like there can...Sure there can moral fascists, just like there can be pregnant virgins. But it's a pretty rare phenomenon.<BR/><BR/>Look at what Robert O Paxton has to say:<BR/><BR/>Since Mussolini, there have been many conflicting definitions of the term fascism. Former Columbia University Professor Robert O. Paxton has written that:<BR/><BR/>Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."[12]<BR/><BR/>Paxton further defines fascism's essence as:<BR/><BR/>...a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one’s group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint; 5. fear of foreign `contamination."[12]<BR/><BR/>Dror certainly holds (2), and that's good enough for me.<BR/><BR/>Soviet Jews were not "imperiled." Some came to Israel for ideological reasons (relatively few) or for a better life. Many stayed. Many of the Jews would have gone elsewhere had they the choice (and many left Israel as soon as they could)-- and remember, Israel constantly tried to remove that choice. Consistent with Zionist policy Israel insisted that it save Jews, or else. <BR/><BR/>Look, I suppose you can say that inasmuch as Israel gave refuge for those genuinely facing physical elimination, and not for other Zionist motives, like the so-called ingathering of the so-called exiles, then it saved those refugees, the way other countries saved refugees.<BR/><BR/>I don't know why you thought I was thinking of the mizrahi experience. I will say that the aliyah of the Ethiopians was more ambivalent then the aliyah of the Russians, for obvious ethnic-racial reasons.<BR/><BR/>As for the historical context, that's a good argument if you're a Zionist, and a bad one if you are not. Since nobody who is not a Zionist believes that the present-day Jews are descended from people who were exiled from Judea two thousand years ago...and anyway, at best, the historical argument may be an argument in favor of trying to realize Jewish self-determination in Palestine. An argument, not necessarily a conclusive one. And self-determination, not necessarily a state.<BR/><BR/>You are obviously new to this blog, and I suggest you read some of my other posts. You will see that I disagree with you profoundly. I would agree with you that the Jewish people has as much right to a state as any people has a right to a state.<BR/><BR/>I.e., none.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-35795240529689930492008-07-06T11:05:00.000-07:002008-07-06T11:05:00.000-07:00You have made some very elementary mistakes on you...You have made some very elementary mistakes on your piece on "Jewish Fascism," not least of which is your definition of "Fascism" itself. It does , in its barest definition, mean that one subverts all other priorities to the good of the state, but it does not dictate moral ambiguity let alone purposefyul rejection of morality for any reason. One can be both a Facist and a moral human being.<BR/><BR/>Another apalling mistake was your belief that "no Jews was rescused by Israel that was not imperiled because of it" (please excuse the close paraphrasing). What of the Jews of the Balkans during the breakdown of Yugoslavia? Jews from the fromer Soviet Union in the post Soviet Era? Even the Jews of Ethiopia were not imperiled because of Israel's existence.<BR/><BR/>You take one facet of a dynamic (that of Mizrachi Jewry and their expereinces post 1947)and attempt to connect the dots. Sorry, but it does not work in this case.<BR/><BR/>Zionism is not the bogeyman. Of all nations in the Middle East only Israel posseses a historical context in which to exist.Even Egypt is a fiction with no relation to any historical nation. <BR/><BR/>Israel is just in its existence but like any nation sometimes fails to act justly. This does not then negate its very right to exist.Israel onws this right on many, many different levels. <BR/><BR/>Ergo, to support the state above all else while always working to build on constructive criticism (as opposed to simply bashing it out of misplaced Jewish Liberal Guilt)is a positive and commendable action. It is not something to despise and whisper about in hushed tones.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-39335996470118833022008-06-06T07:01:00.000-07:002008-06-06T07:01:00.000-07:00This blog is greatThis blog is greatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-32291515799231408192008-05-25T05:22:00.000-07:002008-05-25T05:22:00.000-07:00Most of th eprophets were pretty violent people - ...Most of th eprophets were pretty violent people - especially if you equate verbal violence with actual violence (a typical progressive liberal position).Ben Bayithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10540723595738423002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-8468428490415121812008-05-21T15:52:00.000-07:002008-05-21T15:52:00.000-07:00Why the surprise?If Hitler wasn't an anti Semite a...Why the surprise?<BR/>If Hitler wasn't an anti Semite at least half the Jews would have embraced National Socialism as a bulwark against decadence and Communism. They would have tolerated or 'not not known about' the final solution of the Roma. <BR/>PloniAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-32578855812700775722008-05-21T11:24:00.000-07:002008-05-21T11:24:00.000-07:00Technically speaking for Reuven and Shimon, the cl...Technically speaking for Reuven and Shimon, the clan's purity (not survival) trumped all morality.<BR/><BR/><I>The truth is that folks like Dror, Podhoretz, and Wisse attempt to provide moral justifications for Israel's actions. When they think they can't, they resort to the Jewish Fascist strategy of Israel's "survival" trumping all considerations. The form of their argument is: either Israel's actions are moral, or morality doesn't count. <BR/><BR/>Of course, as I said, none of this has anything to do with Judaism. </I><BR/><BR/>It may not have anything to do with Judaism qua religion but it does seem to connect to Russian Yiddishkeyt when we remember that the three defining political murders of modern Russia (Alexander II, Pyotr Stolypin, and Nicholas II + family) and therefore of the modern world were ordered, organized or executed by Jews.<BR/><BR/>I probably go into these issues than anyone would ever care to study in <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/ThorsProvoni/JudoniaComplete/JudoniaCompleteA.htm#_Toc198421598" REL="nofollow">Judonia Rising, Part II</A>, but I could probably summarize that Yiddishkeyt is what people make it, and for this reason people like Yehezkel Dror, Ruth Wisse and friends are extremely disturbing.<BR/><BR/>And BTW it is probably a minor point, the ideology of Arlosoroff, Katznelson, Ben-Gurion, and the so-called left Zionists is far closer to historic fascism than the belief system of Dror, Wisse and friends, who as highly politicized ethnic fundamentalists are Jewish Nazis.Joachim Martillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00121944171459090792noreply@blogger.com