tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post8673680473135244654..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: Where We Orthodox Jews Have Gone Wrong -- And How We Can Make AmendsJerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-31921879663766892032010-09-29T00:46:03.648-07:002010-09-29T00:46:03.648-07:00eli,
there is no historical evidence for either of...eli,<br />there is no historical evidence for either of your assertions. Of course, there are many popular legends about the Rambam. What's your source?Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-32352476107866463452010-09-28T19:12:55.451-07:002010-09-28T19:12:55.451-07:00By the The Rambam was the Sultans personal physici...By the The Rambam was the Sultans personal physician but the muslim advisors were jealous iof the honour this "jew" was recieving, so they had many attempts to kill him. And yes, there Are many great muslims out there who should be brought to the schools and yeshivas but you musn't forget the extremuists and phanatics who won't hear of it and will most likely plot a terrorosit attack. And he was driven out of spain because he didnt want to give in and be forced to convert to Islam.elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03806623973906328984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-25782107350740715952010-05-26T02:21:47.756-07:002010-05-26T02:21:47.756-07:00I read your materials and can never keep track of ...I read your materials and can never keep track of the inconsistencies and illogic. You write:<br />"he earlier generations of religious Zionists, Rav Reines, Rav Kook, Rav Soloveitchik, were European to the core. And the early generation of religious Zionists in America, though fed the prejudiced Zionist line about the Arabs, nevertheless was deeply influenced by liberal American values, and the American rejection of bigotry. Such moderates even convinced themselves that this was the message of the Torah."<br /><br />you also invoke Rav Lichtenstein rosh yeshiva of an institition on the other side of the green line.<br /><br />Yet in your writing on beinart you write that <br /><br />"...he accepts the liberal Zionist dogma that there was a humane, universalistic Zionism embodied in the State of Israel, via the Labor party and the Zionist left. This is false. Yes, there was a humanistic Zionism -- the Zionism of Buber, Magnes, Einstein, Arendt, Kohn, Ernst Simon -- but it died with the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948"<br /><br />well someone as well versed in history as you would know rav kook's view of zionism had far more in common with labor zionists with whom he worked constantly and saw their settlement of the land and establishment of the state as an event of profound religious significance.<br /><br />So which is it Hannah Arendt's zionism or Rav Kook's and Rav Lichtenstein's that you want followed by today's orthodox.<br /><br />Inquiring minds would like to know before taking your advice to heart.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-4671047920957893452010-05-21T13:02:44.835-07:002010-05-21T13:02:44.835-07:00The picture is of Americans from Reishit. My frien...The picture is of Americans from Reishit. My friend (who goes to Reishit, an American Yeshivah located in Beit Shemesh) mentioned that kids from his yeshivah made the news under the story line of "Israelis yell at Palestinian lady" (or something along that line). He said that they were actually singing to drown out some racket she was making, and not yelling at her.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5363881082417597982010-05-21T08:51:07.247-07:002010-05-21T08:51:07.247-07:00Jewlicious,
I have talked with other people who w...Jewlicious,<br /><br />I have talked with other people who where there. There were Israeli and Americans, and you may have heard Israeli accents <br /><br />But these guys are definitely Americans. Look at their faces, the black kippot (lo serugot), their clothes -- they are not hardal, benei akiva, or Israeli haredi. And that has been the reaction of everybody who saw the pictures who have written about it on Israeli blogs except you. <br /><br />Find out their names and I will be happy to talk to them and print a retraction.<br /><br />I grant you that mitokh she-lishmah, people can have a positive experience learning Arabic. I have spent most of my adult life since college learning Arabic -- for me it is a difficult language -- and I am glad you feel that this is a moderating influence.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-66766164614193665572010-05-21T08:09:26.516-07:002010-05-21T08:09:26.516-07:00Thank you for your blog post, although I don't...Thank you for your blog post, although I don't think there's much chance of it having much effect and I have only feelings of vague dread about the future.<br /><br />If I have kids at some point, I I would send them to public school and teach them alef-beyz, etc., at home. Day schools, shuls, "yeshivos" for gap year (I don't think they're actually exposing kids to real ameilus be-torah, the spirituality they offer seems masturbatory)--they all seem deeply contaminated with a lot of dangerous and stupid nonsense. <br /><br />The scary thing is that we are not really in a position to have the luxury of being stupid.motinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-19651130959126271322010-05-21T07:51:58.266-07:002010-05-21T07:51:58.266-07:00Jerry,
The kids were totally Israeli. I know the d...Jerry,<br />The kids were totally Israeli. I know the difference between Israelis and Americans. Their Hebrew accents were flawless and some of their clothing was from Castro. I heard their small talk. They are 100% Israeli, born and bred. What other details do you want to know?<br /><br />As for the kids in Blumenthal's video, recall how originally, ignorant viewers thought they were Israeli. Most of those kids were American and the ones that made the most glaringly offensive or painfully stupid statements were not what I would call mainstream modern orthodox. You ever see a regular attendant at your shuls wearing a faux hawk? Really? If you're going to try and pin the idiots in Blumenthal's video on Modern Orthodoxy, you're really barking up the wrong tree.<br /><br />That having been said, I too have heard sober Orthodox people say dumb and offensive things. Orthodoxy is no guarantee against bigotry, stupidity and narrow mindedness. Neither is being a progressive liberal. I've heard them say bigoted, dumb and offensive things as well.<br /><br />And yes, all kinds of kids, spanning the religious and ideological spectrum get high and drunk all the time in Jerusalem. So what?<br /><br />As for Modern Orthodox kids "getting to know the enemy," again, I don't think it's a bad idea. I myself am multi-lingual and every language learned is a window into another culture. One of my acquaintances, an MO kid with right leaning tendencies, moderated his views significantly after a protracted period of Arabic study. Anyone that really wants to learn Arabic or any foreign language, needs to spend a period immersed in that language. My friend spent time in Jordan and Egypt, got to know the "enemy" and now has a far more nuanced position on the matsav, going from hard right to center, center/left. You'll certainly never hear him say that Arabs are animals or anything idiotic like that. Just sayin' Jerry... Anyhow, shabbat shalom, gotta pull the kugel from the oven...Jewlicioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01502220194468732537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-40863484179730614922010-05-21T05:44:41.599-07:002010-05-21T05:44:41.599-07:00Jewlicisou
Re Arabic in day schools.
Actually, i...Jewlicisou<br /><br />Re Arabic in day schools.<br /><br />Actually, it is a horrible start.<br /><br />Frum Jews are learning Arabic not to understand Arab culture, but to "know the enemy," Islamofascism". <br /><br />I have talked with a quite a number of these students. They are thrilled about protecting the US from Al Qaeda and Israel from all the Arabs who talk one way to each other (in Arabic) and another to the world. <br /><br />I shudder to think that those modern orthodox Jews are going into defense, security, and foreign policy positions. We will have a whole bunch of little Daniel Pipes with kippot, rahmana litzlan.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-28797946645225842802010-05-21T05:39:35.202-07:002010-05-21T05:39:35.202-07:00Jewlicious,
One look at those pictures tells me t...Jewlicious,<br /><br />One look at those pictures tells me that these are Americans -- at best, American Israelis. Obviously, I cannot tell if they are here for the gap year. If somebody can identify them, let me know. What makes you say they are Israelis? Their accents? Did you talk with them?<br /><br />As for Max's video, well obviously the non-orthodox kids in the video were not the subject of my post, were they? But there were also orthodox kids interviewed and they were not drunk. In fact, most of the people interviewed by Max and Joseph were not drunk. But it is convenient to claim that they were.<br /><br />You also know that there are orthodox kids that drink, smoke grass, and do drugs here, and that kikar tziyyon is a meeting place. That, of course, is a separate problem. But again, some of the kids in the video looked perfectly "normal".<br /><br />Once again, if you give me more details about the Sheikh Jarrah crowd, I would be much obliged.<br /><br />I would like to mention that I heard some pretty bigoted things about Arabs said by orthodox Jews when I was on a major Ivy league campus last fall. And, no, the guys weren't drunk.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-23450683994900787432010-05-21T05:31:37.289-07:002010-05-21T05:31:37.289-07:00bacci40, let me tell you a story about Rav yaakov ...bacci40, let me tell you a story about Rav yaakov weinberg. <br /><br />Once I heard him give a shiur on Rambam at Aish ha-Torah. He referred to a manuscript of the Mishneh Torah in Oxford. During the question and answer period, he was asked by a bahur, "Why would the goyyim care about Jewish manuscripts?" Rav Yaakov seemed genuinely perplexed by the question and said, "I don't know...maybe money."<br /><br />At that point I realized that I had nothing else to learn from Rav Yaakov. <br /><br />bacci40, I am always saddened when Jews justify hatred and bigotry by pointing fingers to Muslims, Christians, blah, blah, blah, and saying "Hey, they're not any better." I can't think of a more immature response than that. There is intolerant Islam and there is tolerant Islam, and there are many shades in between. There are almost a billion Muslims, most of whom are not Arab. So since you know very little about that, let's talk about things you know more about.<br /><br />As for Rav Kuk's teshuvah and selling to gentiles, I plan to discuss that later.<br /><br />Shabbat ShalomJerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5076526036974874402010-05-21T05:24:08.081-07:002010-05-21T05:24:08.081-07:00Yasher koakh for speaking truth to power. Of cours...<i>Yasher koakh</i> for speaking truth to power. Of course power in this case like most others wont listen. (Strangely the word one has to type to show one is a human not a robot commentator was <b> Dachau</b>Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925912695144543921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-50391538082126577062010-05-21T05:19:44.840-07:002010-05-21T05:19:44.840-07:00J\rry,
I certainly support much of the sentiment c...J\rry,<br />I certainly support much of the sentiment contained in this post. Bigotry, racism and intolerance are ugly. They feed on one's heart, one's compassion and one's soul. Not that it matters but I was at Sheikh Jarrah when this pic was taken. The silly boys pictured here are Israeli. Not that it matters but they chanted and sang around the pictured woman in response to her clanging loudly on a tin serving tray. Their presence in Sheikh Jarrah was seen as a provocation and she sought to provoke them back. And clearly she did. I'm not excusing the boys - clearly they ought to have behaved with restraint, common decency and dignity rather than provide this unclear photo opp. Similarly, citing Max Blumenthal's "Feeling the Hate in Jerusalem" video in this context is kind of ridiculous. The kids pictured in that video were for the most part not Orthodox. At all. Proper frum kids do not hang out in Kikar Chatulot. They don't get "stoopid" drunk and the women they hang out with know who Netaanyahu is and don't wear low cut sleevless tees.<br /><br />Other than that though, we can all benefit from a strong dose of derech eretz. The ability to express compassion and empathy ought not have to come at the expense of our security. I note that the fastest growing foreign language curriculum in Modern Orthodox educational establishments in the US is Arabic. That can't be bad, it's definitely a good start.Jewlicioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01502220194468732537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-78654340560217307982010-05-21T02:06:00.394-07:002010-05-21T02:06:00.394-07:00oh dang...i posted before i even saw that there wa...oh dang...i posted before i even saw that there was a response.<br /><br />so according to jerry, the rambam wouldnt have become the rambam had he not ended up in egypt.<br /><br />pretty much a heretical statement if i do say so myself.<br /><br />any gedolim agree with you?<br /><br />think ill have to go back and listen to the shiurim given by rav yaakov weinberg (an actual expert on the rambam) to see if he agrees with your assertion.<br /><br />hey jerry, he read plato too<br /><br />you still have to explain what the golden age has to do with the current state of islamic cultureAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-54964723278916253192010-05-21T01:57:58.480-07:002010-05-21T01:57:58.480-07:00guten voch jerry,
let us say you are right, and t...guten voch jerry,<br /><br />let us say you are right, and the worst thing happening to frum kids today is that they are learning hate and prejudice as a result of their sojourns to israel....how did you want to deal with this again?<br /><br />1) of course you know that rav kook, like all gedolim only hold that it is mutar to sell or give the land back in the case of pikuach nephesh...not sure why starting out with his example is going to teach anyone anything...care to list other sources<br /><br />2) which reps from the palestinian refugees would you invite? the ones that stopped oren from speaking at uci? the same ones that refused to have a sit down with the jewish group from that same campus? oh i know...how about the ones organizing the bds<br /><br /> how about getting the ones that took to the streets in sf, miami, los angeles, new york and a myriad of other cities, during the gaza incursion and screamed out jew hate epithets like "go back to the ovens"<br /><br />btw, how many muslim institutions have ever invited any of the jewish refugees from arab lands to come to speak to them? <br /><br />and which frum yidden would you like for institutions to invite to speak about the positive aspects of islam? you must have a name...i know...how about you? of course, the institution would be wise to do a background check and would discover that you hang with straight out jew haters and apologists for hamas, like richard goldstein...so no, i guess you wouldnt do. i know, how about the nk...they can tell all the kids how wonderful it was to live in arab lands before there were evil zionists....oh shoot, they are all in cherem....that wont work either. i know, how about someone like my brother in law. a moroccan jew whose family emigrated to israel....oh shoot, that wont do either, cuz he didnt get his hate for muslims from living in israel, no that came from his family's experience actually living among muslims and being treated as second class citizens. but you must have names...would love to see a list.<br /><br />4) oh yes, lets talk the rambam...and exactly how was it that he found himself and his family in egypt? <br /><br />and are you saying that had he never left spain, he would not have become who he ended up being? <br /><br />but sure, tell kids of the golden age...even though it has little resemblance to current islamic culture.<br /><br />5. exactly how does one make worse the concept of being treated as a second class citizen. how can the fact that the north african muslims embraced the vichy and fascist italians and assisted in the holocaust be exaggerated? or that had hitler gotten as far as palestine, the grand mufti of jerusalem was ready, willing and able to build a death camp in nablus? care to elucidate? and with your last line, are you therefore excusing christian persecution of the jews in europe, the blood libels, the inquistion? for it was the catholics and protestants who had political power...so i guess it was all very understandable. <br /><br />6. on this point, i agree. bigotry is wrong.please tell that to the egyptian book sellers who still stock the protocols on their shelves. <br /><br />7. do you honestly believe that kids go to israel, loving everything about muslims and learn to hate when they are there? especially the modern orthodox? you dont think they have access to newspapers, tv and the internet? you dont think they have a concept of what is going on in the world? do you really teach in a university?<br /><br />btw, if you really choose ever to send such a letter to yu, i would suggest editing out the part about max blumenthal. there is a reason that video was banned from youtube, and the rest of his were not. and it has alot to do with the fraud perpetrated of going out of his way to speak to drunken college kids....it proved nothing other than max couldnt get the story that he wanted talking to kids who werent drunk.<br /><br />i do think its cool that you admire rav aharon, especially since gush sits on stolen arab land.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-12026077672124359252010-05-21T00:43:07.439-07:002010-05-21T00:43:07.439-07:00Y. Ben David,
I didn't misrepresent Rambam...Y. Ben David,<br /><br />I didn't misrepresent Rambam's position because I didn't present Rambam's position.<br /><br />I said that the impact of Arab and Islamic civilization is on every page of his works. The entire Mishneh Torah was conceivable only in a civilization that produced similar law codes. And let us not forget the influence of Islamic law and political theory, as has been shown by Blidstein and Lebson.<br /><br />None of this has anything to do with his position on Islam or Arabs or "the madman Muhammad". <br /><br />Please read more carefully. The only thing I said about the Rambam and tolerance was that how he would not tolerate Christians in a Jewish kingdom but would put them to death. But not Muslims. <br /><br />As for the rest of what you wrote, you know what they say about the flowers that bloom in the spring....Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-14752669057078751212010-05-20T23:57:17.071-07:002010-05-20T23:57:17.071-07:00I am surprised that, as a Jewish studies professor...I am surprised that, as a Jewish studies professor, you have misrepresented the RAMBAM's position. He certainly had no love for the Muslims and Arabs. Yes, he respected certain Muslim thinkers (I don't know how religious they really were), but he did not think much of Islam as a religion or the Arabs as a people. He wrote in either Iggeret L'Teiman or Iggeret HaShmad (I don't recall which) that the Arabs were the biggest enemies the Jewish people ever faced. He wrote in the Mishna Torah biting criticism of the beliefs of Islam (while at the same acknowledging it as not being "avodah zara"). Of course, he was driven out of both Spain and Morocco by Muslim extremists.<br /><br />This use of the RAMBAM by "progressives" to supposedly prove how "tolerant" Islam was as opposed to Christianity ignores the deterioriation in the situation of the Jews in Muslim Spain once the Muslim conquest had been consolidated and that the first big massacre of Jews in Europe was NOT done by the Christian Crusaders, but over 30 years earlier by Muslims in Cordoba in the year 1066 and that there was a flourishing of Jewish thought and philosophy in Christian Spain during the perior of the Reconquista. In the end BOTH the Muslims and the Christians showed temporary tolerance to the Jews until they felt they didn't need them anymore and then followed massacre and/or expulsion.<br /><br />Things like this and the horrors of the 20th centuries leave a powerful imprint in the collective memory, and added to the ongoing Muslim/Arab delegitimization of Israel AND JUDAISM itself (I have seen plenty on the internet myself) by Muslim/Arab extremists, it becomes all too easy to fall into the type of behavior you quite correctly denounce here. It is a delicate educational balancing act to, on the one hand remember history and confront the the difficult challenges of the present, while at the same time educate our young to respect the human rights of those who don't necessarily respect ours.Y, Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.com