tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post8709063334712463179..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: Invest AND Divest: Where the Liberal Zionists Get BDS Wrong -- And What Their Position Towards It Should BeJerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-39607289805919474882010-04-19T15:19:22.101-07:002010-04-19T15:19:22.101-07:00"But successes recently have been impressive,..."But successes recently have been impressive, both in their own right, and as a morale booster for the Palestinians."<br /><br />What successes? BDS has really been a dismal failure. <br />http://www.divestthis.com/Grendalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02946646025141988060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-37275191817822177512010-04-09T08:27:58.948-07:002010-04-09T08:27:58.948-07:00Anonymous,
I also wonder. I have an idea. Let'...Anonymous,<br /><br />I also wonder. I have an idea. Let's leave the choice up to them. And then let Israel examine the question whether a certain individual is a serious security risk before the return. <br /><br />In fact, let's have a serious discussion about the social impact of returning Palestinians. HOw will they be absorbed? What will be their housing and employment opportunities?<br /><br />WE have a ministry of absorption. Let them draw up plans. Let social scientists debate the social consequences. What about job-retraining, etc. How can we insure that the returning refugees don't become a new underclass, etc.<br /><br />In other words, let's consider the question rationallyJerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-40975719856898377202010-04-09T08:23:02.331-07:002010-04-09T08:23:02.331-07:00Y Ben D
You got me, brother.
Certainly there ar...Y Ben D<br /><br />You got me, brother. <br /><br />Certainly there are some people who oppose the occupation whom I won't build coalitions with. Like neo-Nazi skinheads. <br /><br />I was talking to the liberal Zionists. I am trying to convince them to read the BDS stuff and stop demonizing them. I still remember the day when it was taboo to talk with the PLO. Or when people said that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people. Or that the Israel didn't expel hundreds of thousands of Arabs during the 1948 war but that their leaders incited them to do so. <br /><br />Reasonable people when they think will come to all sorts of conclusions. When they just repeat slogans, that's the problem.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-41929375314836529962010-04-09T06:16:10.667-07:002010-04-09T06:16:10.667-07:00I wonder how many Palestinians actually want to re...I wonder how many Palestinians actually <i>want</i> to return to their homes that are located within the 1967 borders of the state of Israel?<br /><br />Some may, but I'd think most would prefer to live in the state of Palestine once that state has been established... and the illegal settlements, the "Jewish only roads," the wall and the many checkpoints are gone.<br /><br />The occupation is what is causing the wars. Certainly no one should imagine that a peace treaty will bring complete peace. There are bad feelings on both sides of the border. But when Palestinians have a state of their own, I think most Palestinians will prefer to live where they are wanted and accepted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5489766278645978152010-04-08T21:42:20.968-07:002010-04-08T21:42:20.968-07:00Jerry-Whether you like it or not, to most Israelis...Jerry-Whether you like it or not, to most Israelis the expression <br />"one state solution" has the same ring as the expression "the final solution" had 60+ years ago. I know you will indigninantly point out that "there are many fine one-staters who don't want to throw the Jews into the sea and view the single state as a prosperous, multicultural, democratic state with all religious and ethnic groups living in harmony...blah, blah, blah". Something like Iraq or Lebanon. Problem is that you can't sell that to more than a handful of Israeli Jews. Most Israelis hear official Palestinian and other Arab media pushing the line that "the Jews are decendents of monkeys and pigs" or "the Jews have been conspiring against Islam since the time of Muhammed (a Sayyid Qutb gem), or the moderate Abu Mazen's statement that "the creation of Israel is the greatest crime in the history of mankind". People that believe these things are not going to want to live in peace with Israeli Jews. So I am glad the BDS's have a lot of "one-stater" supporters...it discredits them in the eyes of most people who support Israel.<br />I know you have stated that "I support anyone who opposes the occupation" but are you really that naive? You don't take into consideration what their ultimate goals are even if they are diametrically opposed to your own? Is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" always the best policy?Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-81347755985900222032010-04-08T20:34:52.742-07:002010-04-08T20:34:52.742-07:00Anonymous,
1) Recognizing the right of return as ...Anonymous,<br /><br />1) Recognizing the right of return as embodied in UN Resolution 194 is perfectly compatible with recognizing the state of Israel as a fait accompli. Look at the following statement from the 2005 resolution of BDS<br /><br />"These non-violent punitive measures should be maintained until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people's inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by: <br /><br />1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall; <br /><br />2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and <br /><br />3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194. <br /><br />You cannot explain the second goal according to your misinterpretation. If the goal of BDS is to destroy Israel, why would it call for civil equality for Palestinian Israelis?<br /><br />Do you really think that any Palestinian will ever accept the "right of Jewish self-determination" as a state in Palestine." You sound like Bibi. It is not enough for you that Palestinians recognize Israel, they have to become Zionists?<br /><br />Anyway, I will make a deal with you. You start your own BDS movement which is geared to ending the occupation and nothing more...and I will sign up for that. Are you fine with that?<br /><br />There is no movement that I agree with 100%, just like there is no petition that I agree with 100%. Some times I have so many disagreements that I decide not to sign. But that does not mean that I can't work the framers of the petition on matters of common interest. It is called a coalition. You think that BDS is one-sided. Fine, don't join it. But don't demonize it either. And if you are truly progressive, you will see that of the two sides to the conflict, one has almost everything and the other has almost nothing. So why can't we work on common goals, or at the very least, agree not to demonize each other?Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-38776954299372114632010-04-08T11:33:43.767-07:002010-04-08T11:33:43.767-07:00Jerry,
Two-staters and one-staters can definitely...Jerry,<br /><br />Two-staters and one-staters can definitely work together to end the occupation, but the BDS movement's stated goals don't include just ending the occupation - it is also explicitly aimed at realizing the right of return. <br /><br />If we're really talking about a joint effort to promote human rights (which is what the BDSers claim to be about), there needs to be a true, honest recognition of each people's legitimate right to political self determination. Denying the Jewish right to self determination is just as bad as denying Palestinian rights, and actually serves to prolong the occupation and conflict. Another problem with the BDS movement is that it is predicated on the unfounded assumption that the occupation is "all Israel's fault", and that the Palestinians are blameless victims. I deeply oppose the occupation, both for what it does to Palestinian rights and for what it does to Israel, but the Palestinians are just as much to blame for the prolongation of the conflict. What is needed to end the occupation and achieve peace and justice in Israel and Palestine is a true mutual recognition - and BDS is a step in the opposite direction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-34634901376594322872010-04-08T11:22:52.544-07:002010-04-08T11:22:52.544-07:00Anonymous, "Some of its *main* supporters are...Anonymous, "Some of its *main* supporters are one-staters". Are you happy?<br /><br />By the way, having Israel recognize the right of return is entirely consistent with being a two-stater. So forget the right of return business. I already concede that there are one-staters in the movement. So what? Why can't two-staters and one-staters fight together to end the occupation? They agree on that.Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-52482659079158446102010-04-08T10:33:42.835-07:002010-04-08T10:33:42.835-07:00Yeah, there's just one problem with your argum...Yeah, there's just one problem with your argument: Mustafa Barghouti, one of the main spokespeople for the BDS movement, clearly states that it aims not only at ending the occupation of the West Bank - but also at ensuring the right of return of all refugees to Israel proper. That doesn't sound like mutual recognition and a two state solution to me. It's not just that "some of its supporters support a one state solution"; denying the legitimacy of Jewish self determination is one of its founding principles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-22433389004343090832010-04-07T15:31:39.825-07:002010-04-07T15:31:39.825-07:00Indeed, it is not J Street. It is for this reason ...Indeed, it is not J Street. It is for this reason that -- allowing that there may be some policy differences today between J Street and AIPAC and may be more tomorrow -- J Street seems to me and to many like another label on the same brand of toothpaste.<br /><br />For me, the test of a movement for Jews who believe in universal human rights is proceeding forward with the Goldstone Report and calling for removal of all the settlers and all the wall from all occupied territories (i.e., calling for compliance with well-settled law in the interest of human rights). <br /><br />BDS seems to do this and, in addition, proposes a mechanism for action, something missing from most other movements.<br /><br />An ethical, law-respecting Israel would have nothing to oppose in BDS and northing to fear from it.pabelmonthttp://123pab.comnoreply@blogger.com