tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post8919474202185201683..comments2023-10-26T06:29:39.824-07:00Comments on The Magnes Zionist: A 1931 Zionist Proposal for a Federal State in PalestineJerry Haberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-65065174619990330842009-06-16T10:39:08.325-07:002009-06-16T10:39:08.325-07:00Of course it's ridiculous to look at the Zioni...Of course it's ridiculous to look at the Zionist movement as monolithic - even you, who are "blah-blahing" about Magnes and a binational state are expressing one small facet of the Zionist enterprise (Brit-Shalom, BTW, never had more than a few dozen members).<br /><br />My point is that it was a lot easier for Ben Gurion to offer a binational state (actually a collection of cantons) during a period of relative calm then it was just five years later. That's a point that appears to have escaped your attention.<br /><br />As for your assertions about Zionist concern for saving the Jews of Europe, perhaps you could fill us in on precisely which countries were willing to take in the hundreds of thousands of Jews that needed to flee Europe at the time of the Peel Commission?<br /><br />BTW, Walter Lacquer's book may be old, but that doesn't mean it's outdated. Just as you and I are old, but not outdated!JEShttp://www.hasbara-handbook.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-7683845516845025762009-06-16T10:32:20.744-07:002009-06-16T10:32:20.744-07:00Another point - The ethnic cleansing of Hebron was...Another point - The ethnic cleansing of Hebron was seemingly 'egged on' by the Mufti, who's views on Jews were vicious - so much so, as we've discussed in the past, that he adulated Hitler and his 'Final Solution' (if he didn't play a major part in 'developing it' as per Nuremberg documents). Do you think the major religious figure of the Muslims of this region developed this hatred towards the Jews because of these 'Zionists'?Avramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296573781960136899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-15272484611004042122009-06-16T09:59:45.773-07:002009-06-16T09:59:45.773-07:00"That the natives wouldn't react violentl..."That the natives wouldn't react violently to a group of ideological Jewish settlers from Europe?"<br /><br />Jerry,<br /><br />If that is the case, what is the reason for the general calm from 1890 to the early 1920s? Surely, it shouldn't have taken them ~30 years to 'react violently' to these settlers ...Avramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296573781960136899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-59370459697282295732009-06-16T08:41:31.407-07:002009-06-16T08:41:31.407-07:00JES
I can't figure you out, either. I thought...JES<br /><br />I can't figure you out, either. I thought you were a respectful fellow. <br /><br />Whatever...<br /><br />Anyway, the point of the post was not to deny any historical context, or to suggest that Ben Gurion can be used as a model today.<br /><br />So what was the point?<br /><br />1) Some of the conventional Zionists who read this blog were blah-blahing about how the Balfour Declaration made Jewish statehood inevitable. These are the same folks who believed that the goal of Zionism was from the outset a Jewish state. Anybody who has read even a smidgen of the history of Zionism (even Lacquer's outdated book -- I think I got it for my bar mitzvah) knows that this is ridiculous.<br /><br />But, JES, as a historian of Zionism -- did you know that Ben Gurion proposed a federalist solution in 1931?<br /><br />2. As I ended the post, I noted that it was easy for Ben Gurion to be "generous" with dividing a country in which the group he spoke for was a small minority. <br /><br />3. Of course, saying more intelligent things about the context would take time and research (with all due respect, the "relative calm" argument seems like a non-starter.) That would include lots of factors, such as Ben-Gurion's position in Labor Zionism, rivals, other circumstances, etc. <br /><br />4. If the Zionists were frantic about saving as many Jews as possible, then why didn't they join with other groups to send refugees to other places besides Palestine. I don't doubt that their intentions were pure. But let's face it, numbers counted for the Zionists, and at other times they opposed solutions which would get Jews to other places. I remind you again of Golda Meir, who, on the eve of the Yom Kippur war, was arguing with Kurt Waldheim about Russian Jews staying in Austria when they should be coming to Israel. Or the attempts by the Israelis to steer Russians to Israel.<br /><br />Let's face it, when you are playing a demographic game, you need bodies. Israelis say that all the time.<br /><br />What did Katznelson think? That the natives wouldn't react violently to a group of ideological Jewish settlers from Europe?Jerry Haberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173892714754718716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-12296966470976349502009-06-15T14:42:51.569-07:002009-06-15T14:42:51.569-07:00Shame on you, Anonymous... pulling out the Hitler ...Shame on you, Anonymous... pulling out the Hitler card. <br /><br />Hitler is dead. If you lump every tin horn dictator into the same pile as Hitler, you risk not noticing some significant differences between and among them.<br /><br />Plenty of people throughout history have hated the Jews. Do we need to pull out the Ferdinand and Isabella card as well? Or do we need to deal with each individual as... an individual!Mary-Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15317410039369693489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-27923677689432477692009-06-15T05:44:51.576-07:002009-06-15T05:44:51.576-07:00What I can't figure about you, Jerry, is that ...What I can't figure about you, Jerry, is that you tend to look at everything out of its historical context. Are you disingenuous or just naive?<br /><br />In this post, and the next, you simply ignore what was going on in the world at the time, and what went on before and after.<br /><br />At the time that this proposal was published, there was relative calm in Palestine, following the riots of 1929, and the British placed minimal restrictions on Jewish immigration. Five years later, the Mufti led a rebellion in which no Jew was safe. I think it was Berl Katznelson who wrote that he had to look for his Browning revolver, because he had forgotten where he had put it. I suggest that you take a look a Anita Shapira's <em>Land and Power</em> (that is if it doesn't bother you that she's a Zionist!)<br /><br />I can only imagine that this was similar to what Jews who had supported Oslo felt when there were terrorist attacks nearly every day. Do you remember those? Or did you flee for the safety of the US like the namesake of this blog?<br /><br />Regarding the next post, I suggest that you recall what was happening in Europe in 1937 when you take a look at Walter Lacquer, and see how frantic many Zionists - especially Weizmann - were to save as many Jews as possible.JEShttp://www.hasbara-handbook.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-5990375306772587002009-06-14T20:03:03.515-07:002009-06-14T20:03:03.515-07:00Lots of things have changed since 1931.
I can thi...Lots of things have changed since 1931.<br /><br />I can think of one BIG THING that changed the world forever.<br /><br />Happened in Germany.<br /><br />By the way, do you believe in reincarnation?<br /><br />It looks like HE'S BACCCK! This time he has dropped his mustache and has these real dark tan thing doing for him.<br /><br />But beyond such superficial differences in appearance, it is so obvious it is him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7675600882597316438.post-4961992959748179362009-06-14T13:12:06.604-07:002009-06-14T13:12:06.604-07:00Anything to get a state, eh? At least you cannot ...Anything to get a state, eh? At least you cannot fault his commitment though I really have issues with DBG on so many levels (as I'm sure you do too, but for different reasons)Avramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296573781960136899noreply@blogger.com